Posted on 03/01/2014 10:42:07 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
Moreover, he appears to equate the two:
And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." (Matt. 19:23-24, emphasis added)
Verse 24 begins with "Again I tell you." Matthew is repeating the same point he had just made, with different words, for emphasis.
Different eschatological perspectives consider the topic differently.
Generally speaking, they are not identical.
While many believers are today as members of the Church are in the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven has not yet been established on Earth. His Kingdom on Earth begins with the Millennium.
For your study, consider the following topics at http://servantsplace.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/The-Kingdom-in-History-and-Prophecy-by-L-S-Chafer.pdf
>>>The article does not note that “kingdom of heaven” is a phrase peculiar to Matthew in the New Testament, which suggests that it is a question of style, rather than denoting something different than “kingdom of God.” ... Moreover, he appears to equate the two: Verse 24 begins with “Again I tell you.” Matthew is repeating the same point he had just made, with different words, for emphasis.<<<
All good points. Thanks.
Philip
Many people have thought differently for a long, long time...The best way to tell they are not the same is because they are spelled differently...
The Kingdom of God as you have noted is the spiritual kingdom which all born again Christians are a part of...I have to be specific there since it appears that all Christians are not born again...The Kingdom of God is invisible...It is within us...We are now living in the Kingdom of God...
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
The Pharisees as well were confused but it's clear that they were looking for a physical kingdom...Jesus cleared them up on what the Kingdom of God was...
The Kingdom of Heaven is a physical kingdom...It is land...Land with a city and a throne and a King...
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus is talking about a physical kingdom with himself as the King...The Kingdom of Heaven...But at the present time THAT kingdom is not from here...
Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Jesus came to Jerusalem just as Zechariah prophesied but was rejected by Israel...He came as a King...A King on a throne to rule over his chosen people...They killed him instead...
After the resurrection, Jesus appeared to his disciples and he was asked:
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
That should be clear to anyone that the disciples were talking of a physical kingdom...A kingdom with land, a city, a throne and a King...
They rejected Jesus again...The Kingdom of Heaven is put on hold until Jesus shows up the next time...He then WILL reign from a physical throne in the city of Jerusalem...
The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven can and do overlap in the scriptures...One has to rightly divide the word of truth and sort them out...
>>>Many people have thought differently for a long, long time...The best way to tell they are not the same is because they are spelled differently...<<<
What about all the verses I posted where the same subject refers to both kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven? What about the verse in Matthew where both are used in the very same verse regarding the rich man?
>>>The Kingdom of Heaven is a physical kingdom...It is land...Land with a city and a throne and a King..<<<
There is no evidence of that in the scripture. I believe that was made-up by a man named Darby in the 1800’s, and promoted by a man name Scofield. But there is no scriptural support, whatsoever. To the contrary. The kingdom of heaven existed at least as far back as the days of John the Baptist, as is written.
Did you read my post?
Philip
The word "Israel" does not appear in Matthew 21:43 KJV but you added it as if it were used by the translators. The verses following it interpret it. "You" referred to the the chief priests and Pharisees, and not the multitude. Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Note that the last verses make it clear he was referring to the then current leadership, not the people, of Israel. Note also that Paul already explained in Romans that national Israel is blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, which coincides with And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Note the plural. History shows us this started in 70AD/CE but did not end there. It continued through the 132-135 AD/CE Second Jewish-Roman War when Jerusalem was rebuilt as a Roman city (Aelia Capitolina. Jerusalem later passed to the Moslems. In 1967 it was liberated and unified again in the modern State of Israel, albeit the Temple Mount is still under Moslem religious rule so that could be an extenuating factor.
Regarding the Kingdom I would say it depends on when Messiah returns.
>>>The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven can and do overlap in the scriptures...One has to rightly divide the word of truth and sort them out...<<<
That sounds like Scofield 101, alright. His book would have been more accurately titled, “Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth.” That con-man has fooled a lot of people, and my heart goes out to them. You do know he was a convicted felon—a con-artist—don’t you? He saw a way to make money, and he jumped on it.
Philip
Yep...
>>>The Kingdom of Heaven is a physical kingdom...It is land...Land with a city and a throne and a King..<<<
There is no evidence of that in the scripture.
The Old Testament is full of it...Everywhere you look it speaks of the coming kingdom...A physical kingdom...
I realize you and others look at many of those verses and don't take them literally...I do take them literally...When the bible says the lions will lay down with the lambs (without eating them), I believe it...And we know those things have not happened...
Understanding that there is a physical kingdom coming with Jesus reigning on the throne of David, as promised is the only way all the scripture makes sense...Removing that kingdom forces people to dump half the bible or more into the trash bin...
I don't expect to change your mind and you will not change mine...
That's what folks are saying now days but there doesn't appear to be any evidence of it...However, that was supposedly before Scofield became a Christian...
But regardless, doesn't matter to me...Scofield is not my mentor...As far as what Scofield taught, I can clearly see a lot of it in the scriptures or I wouldn't believe it...So I don't care if you attack Scofield or Darby or whoever...
Who was punished when Israel broke the land sabbaths. The leadership, only? No.
No matter how you slice it, only a remnant, and those that called on the name of the Lord were saved. The only way the kingdom of God could refer to Israel, only, would be to those elect who were given the thrones and priestly positions in New Jerusalem at the first resurrection; but that is heavenly. For example, his disciples sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
>>> Note also that Paul already explained in Romans that national Israel is blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, which coincides with And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. <<<
You left out the most important part: then next verse:
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" (Rom 11:26 KJV)
That prophecy was from Joel. Read the original:
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Joel 2:32 KJV)
Everyone that called on the name of the Lord was saved. Paul said this to the Gentiles in that same chapter:
"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
Why would he say that if "all Israel was to be saved," as you are suggesting? And why would Paul say this:
"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh." (Rom 9:3)
Why were they cursed? Because they denied Christ, killed the prophets, resorted to idolatry, … Moses warned them over and over again that they would be cursed if they did not keep God's instructions:
"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." (Acts 3:22-23 KJV)
"For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended." (Deu 31:27-30 KJV)
Malachi also warned them they would be cursed:
"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (Mal 4:5-6 KJV)
Now to the second part. In 70 A.D., Jerusalem, the holy city, was trodden down by the Roman armies (Gentiles) for forty and two months by the Roman Armies. Over one million Jews were killed in Jerusalem, and tens of thousands were led away captive into all nations. Rev 11 also talks about the holy city being trodden the Gentiles:
"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." (Rev 11:1-2 KJV)
Moses prophesied about Israel being led away captive in his chapter on the siege and destruction of Jerusalem:
"And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life: In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. And the Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you." (Deu 28:63-68 KJV)
Therefore, I believe the "fulfillment, or fulness, of the Gentiles" was completed when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD. I also believe that, after that, there was no more Jerusalem, as far as Christ was concerned, except New Jerusalem, in heaven.
>>>Regarding the Kingdom I would say it depends on when Messiah returns.<<<
He said this:
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" (Mat 25:31 KJV)
That is when he sat on his throne: when he came with his holy angels to gather his elect in 70AD.
Philip
There is a ton of evidence. Is that the same Christian who refused to help his previously abandoned wife and children after his "conversion?" He became a wealthy man, and didn't leave his children a dime, from all reports, nor did help them at any other time. Families without a father had it tough in those days.
BTW, I saw the error of Scofield's doctrine long before I even knew his middle name. This other stuff about his personal life was revealed to me much later, long after I had rejected his doctrine.
>>>But regardless, doesn't matter to me...Scofield is not my mentor...As far as what Scofield taught, I can clearly see a lot of it in the scriptures or I wouldn't believe it...So I don't care if you attack Scofield or Darby or whoever...<<<
The reason I don't believe them is because so much of their doctrine cannot be found in the scriptures. Much of it had to be spiritualized, including the kingdom of heaven/God distinction I wrote this thread about.
Notice that I did not mention Scofield in the thread, nor any creeds, commentaries or other opinions. Rather I tried to let scripture interpret scripture.
I can see we are not going to see eye-to-eye on this. But whatever you care to write me, I will read it carefully and give you the best scriptural analysis I can.
Philip
>>>And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Note the plural.<<<
I believe Jesus was using a shortened version of these "times":
"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (Dan 12:7)
"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." (Rev 12:14)
Revelation 12 gives a clue how long that is:
"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." (Rev 12:6)
Therefore, times, time and half a time are 2 + 1 + 1/2 = 3 1/2 years, or forty and two months; exactly the time the holy city, Jerusalem was trodden under foot by the Gentiles, as prophesied in Rev 11:2, and confirmed by historical records.
Philip
Shouldn't there be a bunch of references in the New Testament to that kingdom, the third temple, and all those other things you believe? Did it ever occur to you that when you read in the prophecies about a "high mountain" or a future Zion or Jerusalem, they might be referring to this?
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant..." (Heb 12:22-24 KJV)
>>>I realize you and others look at many of those verses and don't take them literally...I do take them literally...When the bible says the lions will lay down with the lambs (without eating them), I believe it...And we know those things have not happened...<<<
So the lions will become vegetarians? That is a new twist. Could it not mean something like, the Devil as a roaring lion, or some other metaphor of the mean man changing his ways? You do recall the Jews took the Old Testament literally, and it did not fare too well for them.
>>>Understanding that there is a physical kingdom coming with Jesus reigning on the throne of David, as promised is the only way all the scripture makes sense...Removing that kingdom forces people to dump half the bible or more into the trash bin..<<<
Surprisingly, I see just the opposite. The only way the new covenant (the new testament) makes any sense to me is with a spiritual kingdom and temple. How do you interpret this prophecy by Isaiah?
"Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest. For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations." (Isa 66:1-3 KJV)
I don't believe I would be doing any animal sacrifices in the future. In fact, I don't want my family anywhere near such a place.
Philip
That sounds like Scofield 101, alright. His book would have been more accurately titled, “Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth.”
Why ask the question of the thread title, if you've already made up your mind not to look at the evidence?
If I can get these angels to stop dancing on my pinhead for just a wee bit, I’ll ask them.
“Thy Kingdom come, on earth, as it is in Heaven.”
This is a prayer given to God by believers here on earth, while members of the Kingdom of God. It is still meaningful without confusing the 2 kingdoms.
>>>Why ask the question of the thread title, if you’ve already made up your mind not to look at the evidence?<<<
I have read every word of Scofield’s reference notes in my 1909; including the incoherent ones. They are also available on-line in the 1917 version.
The true reason the Kingdom of God/heaven overlap is because they are the same thing, with authors interchanging the words.
How did the kingdom of heaven exist in the days of John the Baptist if it is a future event? That can only happen if that verse is spiritualized, which is a no-no.
Philip
The kingdom of heaven was at hand (close)...
>>>If I can get these angels to stop dancing on my pinhead for just a wee bit, I’ll ask them.<<<
LOL! Thanks, Elsie
Philip
>>>The kingdom of heaven was at hand (close)...<<<
According to Jesus, it already existed since the days of John the Baptist. Do you have any scripture that would dispute the words of Jesus?
Do you think Jesus was trying to tell us that the kingdom was going to be taken over by “new ownership?”
What is your definition of “close?”
Philip
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