Posted on 02/22/2014 10:53:16 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
He who would understand the prophets had better begin with Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, where he will find that the Church is one in the Old Testament and New, and the New Testament Church is the fulfillment of all prophecy, the very last phase of God’s redemptive work on earth.
He will discover in Galatians who the true Israel is, to whom the promises are made and that there is no other Israel, and no further fulfillment of prophecy.
The problem of the Galatian believers was the conspiracy to impose upon them Jewish interpretations of prophecy, and to claim over them a Jewish priority or privilege. Paul repulses this conspiracy with unparalleled severity...
(Excerpt) Read more at graceonlinelibrary.org ...
That will truly disappoint Hal Lindsey who had been making a killing from his "Antichrist of the Month" book club. His Dispy cohorts, Lahaye and Jenkins, will also be disappointed. Have you shown them Irenaeus' warning? LOL!
>>>The early Church father is clearly teaching you that the prophecies in Revelation had not happened yet (Against Heresies by St. Irenaeus).<<<
Are you referring to the book by Irenaeus titled Against Heresies that he wrote around 175-185 A.D., or more than one-hundred years after destruction of Jerusalem? He certainly was right on top of things, wasn't he? LOL! Not! He was about three generations removed from the event. And in those days there was very unreliable internet service.
One thing is clear from the book Against Heresies: it is clearly NOT a reliable source for the late-dating of the book of the Revelation.; and anyone who claims it is a reliable source is, at best, a false teacher.
>>>You have civil liberty to start any new teaching, sect, denomination, or religion in this country based on your opinion and private interpretations.<<<
Why start a new sect when we have the Dispies, JW's, 7th Dayers, and other new-age-style sects to choose from? Of course, we also have the traditional catholics, and their strange, unbiblical doctrine.
>>>Those Presbyterian churches apparently hate Zionism. I would not be surprised should they favor reconsideration of United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379 (adopted on November 10, 1975 by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), "determine[d] that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination". The vote took place approximately one year after UNGA 3237 granted the PLO "observer status", following Yasser Arafat's "olive branch" speech to the General Assembly in November 1974. The resolution was passed with the support of the Soviet bloc and other then Soviet-aligned nations, in addition to the Arab and Islamic majority countries. The resolution was revoked in 1991 with UN General Assembly Resolution 46/86, shortly following the end of the Cold War.).<<<
Is that a fact (the highlighted part,) or is that your latest attempt to smear anyone who refuses to toe-the-line of your ungodly sect?
BTW, are you a Christian Zionist? Are you one of that strange breed that wants as many Jews as possible to relocate to Israel so that more of them will be killed when the "prophecies" are fulfilled?
Philip
Point to me any Christian eye-witness source for the destruction of Jerusalem. They are strangely silent on that horrific event! One would think there would be all sorts of "We told you so," "You were warned," or other post war messages from the Christians. Not even "John," who supposedly lived to about 100 AD, wrote anything? That was the same man who was supposed to do this:
"And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings." (Rev 10:11 KJV)
Besides the fact that such traveling would be a pretty neat trick for a 95 year-old man, where are those prophecies? I guess they were all verbal, because I haven't read a word about them.
You think "every eye" is a literal term, yet you have, to this point, ignored my question from #148?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3125911/posts?page=148#148
Answer that question, in literal terms, and we will proceed from there.
Philip
There is a thread today about both Iran and David Duke embracing the latest publication by some of the antiZionist/antiSemitic Presbyterian churches. I believe, like the Apostle Paul, and the Catholic Church, that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Do you ?
That is your bottom line, not mine. These historians were all serious scholars, and either supported what you claimed, or they did not. This is what you claimed:
"Almost all scholars support the Domitian date."
You made that up, or you were quoting someone else who made it up.
There is one other possibility: you are living in that dispensational fantasy world that makes-believe there are no "scholars" but dispensationalists.
One other point: consensus is not history, and it is not fact. It is not really anything. It did provide us with some really nice myths, like, the world is flat, global warming, Christ is going to rule in the flesh from a dusty throne in Israel for 1000 years, dragons in the sea, and a few others.
Philip
AF VET:The early Church father is clearly teaching you that the prophecies in Revelation had not happened yet (Against Heresies by St. Irenaeus).
I have heard this argument before about the "ancient book." What bearing it has that a book is 20-30 years older making it ancient is not a very good premise to argue from. A good point to note is 'what' Irenaeus 'thought' 'the when' of Revelation would occur.
Did Irenaeus think Revelation fulfilled or even partially fulfilled? Happening in his time? or yet future? We shall let him speak for himself, but I will not quote from the normal internet site focus on Against Heresies Book V chapter 30. We may touch on that since it is known, but let us journey to the chapters before in Book V and get a sense of the thoughts of the times in the mid to late 2nd century. We all, however, will be disappointed. Irenaeus cannot be tagged as a dispensational, nor a post-millennial, nor a preterist. It is obvious he was a 'literalist' at the least. Here are some of his quotes all taken from Against Heresies and which give us an indication of his thinking. The following will lend to what we call the external evidence:
Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 25)
1. And not only by the particulars already mentioned, but also by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king, [i.e., one] in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless one; as an apostate, iniquitous and murderous; as a robber, concentrating in himself [all] satanic apostasy, and setting aside idols to persuade [men] that he himself is God, raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do [now] worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: “Unless there shall come a failing away first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sits in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God.” The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped— that is, above every idol — for these are indeed so called by men, but are not [really] gods; and that he will endeavour in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God.
Note: Irenaeus sees antichrist as yet to come.
Continuing with Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 25):
2. Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: “But when you shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that reads understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.”
3. Daniel too, looking forward to the end of the last kingdom, i.e., the ten last kings, among whom the kingdom of those men shall be partitioned, and upon whom the son of perdition shall come, declares that ten horns shall spring from the beast, and that another little horn shall arise in the midst of them, and that three of the former shall be rooted up before his face. He says: “And, behold, eyes were in this horn as the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things, and his look was more stout than his fellows. I was looking, and this horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them, until the Ancient of days came and gave judgment to the saints of the most high God, and the time came, and the saints obtained the kingdom.” Daniel 7:8, etc. Then, further on, in the interpretation of the vision, there was said to him: “The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall excel all other kingdoms, and devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and cut it in pieces. And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time,” Daniel 7:23, etc. that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second [Epistle] to the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: “And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming; whose coming [i.e., the wicked one's] is after the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and portents of lies, and with all deceivableness of wickedness for those who perish; because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And therefore God will send them the working of error, that they may believe a lie; that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but gave consent to iniquity,” 2 Thessalonians 2:8.
Note: Irenaeus still speaking above prophecies as future. link for above is: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103525.htm
Moving along in Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 26):
1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: “And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.” Revelation 17:12, etc. It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord....http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103526.htm
Note: Irenaeus, still speaking as future the prophecies. continuing in Book V, chapter 27:
1. If the Father, then, does not exercise judgment, [it follows] that judgment does not belong to Him, or that He consents to all those actions which take place; and if He does not judge, all persons will be equal, and accounted in the same condition. The advent of Christ will therefore be without an object, yea, absurd, inasmuch as [in that case] He exercises no judicial power. For “He came to divide a man against his father, and the daughter against the mother, and the daughter-in-law against the mother-in-law;” Matthew 10:25 and when two are in one bed, to take the one, and to leave the other; and of two women grinding at the mill, to take one and leave the other: Luke 17:34 [also] at the time of the end, to order the reapers to collect first the tares together, and bind them in bundles, and burn them with unquenchable fire, but to gather up the wheat into the barn; Matthew 13:30 and to call the lambs into the kingdom prepared for them, but to send the goats into everlasting fire, which has been prepared by His Father for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:33, etc. And why is this? Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrha; Luke 10:12 but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven. If then the advent of the Son comes indeed alike to all, but is for the purpose of judging, and separating the believing from the unbelieving, since, as those who believe do His will agreeably to their own choice, and as, [also] agreeably to their own choice, the disobedient do not consent to His doctrine; it is manifest that His Father has made all in a like condition, each person having a choice of his own, and a free understanding; and that He has regard to all things, and exercises a providence over all, “making His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sending rain upon the just and unjust.” Matthew 5:45 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103527.htm
Note: the resurrection of believers and unbelievers yet to come.
Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 28):
2. And for this reason the apostle says: “Because they received not the love of God, that they might be saved, therefore God shall also send them the operation of error, that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but consented to unrighteousness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 For when he (Antichrist) has come, and of his own accord concentrates in his own person the apostasy, and accomplishes whatever he shall do according to his own will and choice, sitting also in the temple of God, so that his dupes may adore him as the Christ; wherefore also shall he deservedly “be cast into the lake of fire:” Revelation 19:20 [this will happen according to divine appointment], God by His prescience foreseeing all this, and at the proper time sending such a man, “that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but consented to unrighteousness;” whose coming John has thus described in the Apocalypse: “And the beast which I had seen was like a leopard, and his feet as of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion; and the dragon conferred his own power upon him, and his throne, and great might. And one of his heads was as it were slain unto death; and his deadly wound was healed, and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon because he gave power to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like this beast, and who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemy and power was given to him during forty and two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation. And all who dwell upon the earth worshipped him, [every one] whose name was not written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any one have ears, let him hear. If any one shall lead into captivity, he shall go into captivity. If any shall slay with the sword, he must be slain with the sword. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.” Revelation 13:2, etc. After this he likewise describes his armour-bearer, whom he also terms a false prophet: “He spoke as a dragon, and exercised all the power of the first beast in his sight, and caused the earth, and those that dwell therein, to adore the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he shall perform great wonders, so that he can even cause fire to descend from heaven upon the earth in the sight of men, and he shall lead the inhabitants of the earth astray.” Revelation 13:11, etc. Let no one imagine that he performs these wonders by divine power, but by the working of magic. And we must not be surprised if, since the demons and apostate spirits are at his service, he through their means performs wonders, by which he leads the inhabitants of the earth astray. John says further: “And he shall order an image of the beast to be made, and he shall give breath to the image, so that the image shall speak; and he shall cause those to be slain who will not adore it.” He says also: “And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the right hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty-six,” Revelation 13:14, etc. that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years.
Note: He is still speaking of Revelation prophetic events as future. We continue in Book V Chapter 28:
3. For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: “Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works.” Genesis 2:2 This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; 2 Peter 3:8 and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year.
Note: bonus round here:) Irenaeus not only was an "young earth advocate" but makes a broad prediction along with it.
Continuing in Chapter 28:
4. And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet. As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: “I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God.” http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103528.htm
Note: Irenaeus obviously advocates the church going through the tribulation. So no points from him for a pre-trib rapture, yet as we will see later he did see a rapture "caught up" would occur. So we will now see Irenaeus opine on the tribulation as future and not past in 70 AD nor in past to him in 132 AD.
Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 29):
1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance— in fact, as nothing;” Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
Note: those who ascribe none of the church fathers 'saw' a rapture should read the above. But don't worry Tim LaHaye is not doing "cartwheels" either. Irenaeus is clear he sees the "caught up" is either mid or late tribulation. Let's continue with Chapter 29:
2. And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth]. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103529.htm
"And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes..." A key statement, no? Sums up his view which is a futurist view. A VERY literal futurist view of Matthew 24, 25 and Revelation 4-22.
My point was not to provide evidence Irenaeus was a Darby dispensational pre-trib rapture adherent. No, but the evidence provided from his own writings clearly show that this man standing in the mid to late 2nd century AD did see the prophecies of end times as yet future. Irenaeus also clearly interpreted such Holy Scriptures as literal and when symbol was clear took his best shot at providing his theory. Are his views 'infallible.' Of course not, we know he made mistakes like we do now within the Body of Christ, however his views in Against Heresies are the most extensive of a church father from that early time on prophecy and end times.
Irenaeus was a literal futurist.
I believe post #166 will address your conclusion as baseless. Even if Revelation was penned in 50 AD, Irenaeus saw end times events in Revelation as future to his time in the late 2nd Century.
You can support David Duke if you like; but I'm not going to.
>>>I believe, like the Apostle Paul, and the Catholic Church, that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.<<<
But you don't believe these words of our Lord and saviour, Jesus Christ:
"… Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven." (Mat 23:9 NAB)
"… And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven." (Mat 23:1-9 DRA)
You don't even believe the words of Christ in your own Catholic bibles; and you are preaching to me? That's disgusting!
Philip
Guess what? John is still performing that mission today! It is in writing! You just helped John out by posting the verse for all to see on FR! Great job!
This is one of those situations where we test hermeneutics. I will post a verse and let me know where it is literal and where it shifts to allegory or symbol.
Isaiah 61 King James Version (KJV):
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.
I am sure the above is familiar to you as Jesus Christ read aloud the first portions for all to hear as recorded in Luke 4:
Luke 4:
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth.(KJV)
Please notice the purple in Isaiah and red letters in Luke. Jesus Christ clearly pointed out the mission of the First Advent and did not read the words of the Second Advent of conquering King. The First Advent was well witnessed in Word and Power. Yet we are to believe the Second Advent was done in 'secret?' Obviously the First Advent was literal as in Christ Jesus did all those things which He announced to those listening in Luke 4 both literally and with thousands of witnesses. Are we to take the remainder of Isaiah 61 as symbol or allegory?
That is all find and dandy, and I am well aware that Irenaeus was a futurist. But that label will never explain why Irenaeus claims something that was seen almost in his day, had somehow became "ancient" by the time it was written down. And you have no explanation for that. I believe our discussion was about the dating of the Revelation. Let's not get too misdirected, please.
Note that Irenaeus wrote of the temple. Did Irenaeus explain that the "temple of God" that Paul was writing about was a spiritual temple? It seems that it is spiritual when evaluated in the Greek with all other instances of the two words used for "temple." In a general sense, there is one Greek word for former temple at Jerusalem, and a different one for the temple of the body. This is Paul:
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" (2 Th 2:3-11 KJV)
Note the last two highlighted fragments. Don't you think that is an odd thing for him to say to a group of people who will dead 2000 or more years before this man of sin arrives on the scene? LOL!
John wrote of the falling away, as well. When one evaluates "falling away," or equivalent themes in the N.T., they always seem to refer to those who had received the spirit and then reverted back to Judaism. Now, if this son of perdition (not Judas, the son of perdition, but a different one,) had received the power of the Holy Ghost, and had an unclean spirit, would it be logical for him to think that he was God, and his body was the temple of God? Seems logical to me.
The Greek word for temple in that instance, is the same Greek word used for temple in every case but one after the book of Acts. For example, these are a couple:
"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:19-22 KJV)
"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;" (Acts 17:24 KJV)
They refer to the body as the temple. The only time a different Greek word is used after the book of Acts, is this:
"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?" (1 Cor 9:13, KJV)
As you can see, that verse is most definitely not talking about the body as the temple. It used the same Greek word that was used to describe the temple in Jerusalem that Jesus taught in.
If that is the only evidence of a third temple one can find in New Testament, maybe that doctrine is not a sound as claimed. And maybe all the twisting and contorting of the scriptures to "prove" the other late-date claims should also be questioned.
Philip
How is that clear. Later, when talking to his disciples, Jesus said:
"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22 KJV)
That first clause came right out of Isaiah 1:2. Note that when Jesus made that statement the new testament had not been written. He was referring to the fulfillment of the old covenant: the old testament.
That was just one of His many warnings of impending vengeance, some of which were spoken directly to the eventual targets of his wrath:
"And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets." (Mat 23:30-31 KJV)
"Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:47-51 KJV)
"And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us." (Luke 23:27-30 KJV)
John the Baptist got into the act:
"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? " (Mat 3:7 KJV)
Even the apostles got into the act:
"Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:" (Acts 7:52 KJV)
"For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." (Rev 16:6 KJV)
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24 KJV)
It sound like the mission of the "conquering King" was well established prior the destruction of Jerusalem.
Philip
>>>>Guess what? John is still performing that mission today! It is in writing! You just helped John out by posting the verse for all to see on FR! Great job!<<<<
Next, someone will be reminding me that Methusala lived to be over 800 years old. LOL!
How about this: when did John say he was in exile? What was him purpose for being on Patmos?
Philip
Your list is interesting. A few well known and good names. 95% of your list I would gather from the names are from the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Any from the first three or four centuries?
I hope you looked at some of the bios on your list. A large German JEDP population there.
No, Irenaeus did not expound on a spiritual temple. He was a plain writer and where he did not think something was literal but symbol, he explains it. In Against Heresies, "temple" is "temple" period. Just as antichrist is a literal world leader yet to come for him and not "spiritual." There is nothing mystic about his writings, as he quotes heavily from Scriptures.
As you can see, that verse is most definitely not talking about the body as the temple. It used the same Greek word that was used to describe the temple in Jerusalem that Jesus taught in.
Another example of shifting hermeneutics. We both know our Lord spoke very clearly and literally and also used simile and parable to explain a truth. When Jesus tells us about the Temple in Matthew 24 and Paul in 2 Thes. 2 it is literal and not figurative. Irenaeus would know the local recent history. I am sure as in our days today there was talk of building another temple. I am sure he was under the same impression since that was a goal of the Jewish rebellion in ca. 132AD which failed. So there is no indication Irenaeus is "spiritualizing" 'Temple' in Against Heresies. He is quite clear what he opines on is yet future.
As stated earlier...Even if Irenaeus believed Revelation was written before 70 AD does it make a difference of 20 or so years for a document to be deemed ancient? The same use of "ancient" can mean the oldest known copies of a document. The importance of his writings is he was convinced the prophecies of Matthew 24, Paul and Revelation were yet future to his time.
"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22 KJV)
In Luke 21 as in Matthew 24 Jesus Christ is providing prophecy of what was yet to happen. You see all of the above happen prior and completed in 70 AD; me, others and Irenaeus see it yet future. But you answered my question. You see the remainder of Isaiah 61 as not a literal fulfillment but one of allegory or spiritualization.
Any study Bible on my shelf will espouse the majority view of the dating of revelation.
I have never understood the propensity of the preterist to deny what is patently obvious.
Scholars? Who decides who is a scholar? I can acknowledge that your list has many good scholars ... but let's face it ... even among your list of scholars, their views would not be completely congruent. Where they diverge where do you drop the label of scholar for one of them? Scholars disagree all the time.
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