Moses or Christ? Paul’s Reply To Dispensational Error

Preterists claim that “this generation” meant those alive at the time of Christ. Simple reading of the text says otherwise if simple reading skills are applied.

One simply needs to read what Christ said prior to that statement. “This generation” refers to the generation that sees all of those things fulfilled. Forcing all of those conditions into the years from Christ’s death and resurrection until 70AD does not work. One in particular stands out.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

History alone shows us of times worse than 70AD.

>>>Your nutshell view is precisely partial prederist.<<<

There is no such thing as a "partial" preterist, by definition of the word preterist. While we are on this subject, which you seem to be obsessed with, you may want to reconsider your misspelling of preterist.

>>>To have a consistent hermeneutic you would then have to explain for example how Nero was thrown in the lake of fire and how his victorious (not defeated) army became worm and fowl food after the Army of Christ crushed them.<<<

Are you referring to the Army of Christ that was fighting from heaven? Maybe you can explain to us how an army in heaven fights on the earth.

While you are at it, maybe you can explain how anyone is thrown into the lake of fire. I am not burdening you with the restriction of a particular individual. I am asking, how do we know when anyone is thrown into the lake of fire?

And how do you know it was Nero's army that became worm and fowl food? History has recorded that there was no one left to bury the 1.1 million Jews killed in Jerusalem; so many of them became the "feast" of the buzzards, eagles and wild dogs. Moses, himself, mentioned that would happen during his Deuteronomy 28 prophecy on the future siege and destruction of Jerusalem:

"And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away." (Deu 28:26 KJV)

To maintain a consistent hermeneutic, shouldn’t you allow for the fact that there was no mention whatsoever that Nero's army became worm and fowl food? One could make an uneducated guess that Nero's army was part of the "remnant" mentioned in Rev 19:21; but are we not bound by consistent hermeneutics?

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." (Rev 19:17-21 KJV)

redleghunter, your arguments are very difficult to follow without scriptural support. All I see are your unsubstantiated opinions. It would be helpful if you cite biblical verses for your arguments. Even better, if you would quote the scripture and highlight the parts (bold, underline, …) supporting your arguments. Otherwise, I just don't have enough time left in this life to figure out what you are trying to say.

>>>Of course you would have to shift to an allegory to explain that away as would every eye would see Christ come again.<<<

Do you think that is literal, in light of all the old testament documentation associating the Lord coming in clouds, dating all the way back to Moses?

Also, when referring to "those who pierced him," who also saw him coming with clouds, are you literally interpreting "those" to mean the Roman soldier who speared him, or the Jews who had Christ condemned (where the judgement actually lay?) Or are you spiritualizing the scriptures so that statement means some future group of Jews? Which is it? Literal or Spirtual?

>>>The Scriptures are clear Christ is coming to defeat the armies of the beast. Not help the beast destroy Jerusalem. <<<

It is not clear at all. You made that up, or someone did. It is quite a stretch to assume that the gathering together of those in opposition to Christ-- the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies--are the armies of the beast. Your statement is in no way fact, but is rather a clear case of spiritualizing the scriptures to maintain your bias that the "beast" is some "all-powerful," modern-era creature.

>>>Plus Nero was no where near Jerusalem and led no armies there.<<<

No, he was only torturing and murdering the early Christians in horrendous ways, up until the time of this death. No big deal.

>>>In summary the cold hard historical facts we all know to be accurate do not match your interpretation of Revelation. <<<

I would recommend you read Ken Gentry's book, Before Jerusalem Fell, before making again such a brash, uneducated statement.

Frankly, I am, at this point, unimpressed with your understanding of the scriptures. If you care to cite scriptural references to support your claims, I will be happy to evaluate them.

Philip

>> I would recommend you read Ken Gentry's book, Before Jerusalem Fell, before making again such a brash, uneducated statement.<<

Ah yes! Gentry the Preterist.

Kenneth Gentry [http://www.theopedia.com/Kenneth_Gentry]

Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr. (b. 1950) is a pastor and theologian ordained in the Reformed Presbyterian Church, General Assembly. He has written numerous books and articles, most notably on preterism and postmillennialism in eschatology, and the Book of Revelation. He has also written on ethics, particularly from a theonomist view. Gentry is a graduate of Tennessee Temple University (BA), Reformed Theological Seminary (MDiv), and Whitefield Theological Seminary (ThM, ThD).

Theonomy – aka Christian Reconstructionism [http://carm.org/christian-reconstructionism-theonomy]

Recent advocates are Gary North, Gary DeMar, Kenneth Gentry, Larry Pratt, Greg Bahnsen.

Teachings:
Christian Reconstructionism (also known as theonomy) is a highly controversial movement within some conservative Christian circles. It maintains that the world should be brought under (reconstructed) the lordship of Jesus Christ in all areas: social, moral, political, judicial, military, family, art, education, music, etc. Christian Reconstructionism advocates the restoration of Old Testament civil and moral laws in order to reconstruct present American society into an Old Testament type Mosaic form and that the three main areas of society - family, church, government - should all be biblically modeled, the Bible being the sole standard. This would include severe punishments for law breakers. Some Christian reconstructionists would advocate death for adulterers, abortionists, idolaters, murderers, homosexuals, rapists, etc.

Reconstructionts maintain a strong belief that the Bible is true and inerrant. Generally postmillennial 'that through the preaching and teaching of the gospel, the world will be converted to Christianity and that Christ will return after a period of time after the world is converted.

Christian reconstructionism advocates removing prisons and and replacing them with the practice of restoration of damages done. Christians are the new chosen people of God, replacing national Israel. Other religious systems would be strongly resisted.

There is a debate among some Christian reconstructionists on whether or not slavery should be reinstituted; not all are in agreement.

Opposes evolution. Teaches Jesus will physically return to Israel.

Christian reconstructionism began with the publication of the Institute of Biblical Law by R. J. Rushdoony in 1973. This 800 page work expounded on the 10 Commandments. After Rushdoony's death in 2001, his son-in-law Gary North took the reins and has become a prolific writer, further advocating Christian Reconstructionism.

I’ve got lot’s of stuff on Gentry’s buddy Rushdoony. Of course old scary Gary North Rushdoony’s son in law was gem also. Want me to go on?

>>>Yet your first few threads were heavy on outside sources.<<<

LOL! I have no idea what you are talking about. Would you care to explain without innuendo?

>>>Yet your first few threads were heavy on outside sources. Your comments also are very similar to Freepers who have posted here before defending a full or partial prederist position.<<<

I see you are still burdened with your obsession against anyone opposing the new-age, cult-like doctrine of Dispensationalism.

>>>The examples you give from Isaiah and hard references from Josephus are word for word from another recent poster. So I questioned the independent study claims.<<<

If someone quotes Isaiah or Josephus, why would they not quote them word for word? Were you expecting them to spiritualize the scriptures, as dispensationalists seem to do on a regular basis?

Whether you like or not, researchers are going to continue to find major flaws in the cult-like doctrine of dispensationalism, and more and more Christians will abandon that flawed hermeneutic.

>>>So I questioned the independent study claims.<<<

Lol! Are calling me a liar? Do you have any proof whatsoever of your vile, nasty claim? No. You cannot support your strange interpretations of the scripture, so you cast aspersions against anyone who disagrees. Shame.

Philip

Cynical Bear, I thought you were through with me?

>>>Then they have to explain how God doesn’t keep His promises to the nation of Israel. (Genesis 17: 7)<<<

Israel didn’t' keep its promise, but God kept his promise. Christ inherited all the promises:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)

All the promises went to the single seed of Christ. Two verses after the verse you quoted, God said:

"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations." (Genesis 17:9)

Who kept the covenant? Certainly not the nation of Israel. They broke it in every way imaginable. They even broke the land covenant!

"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it." (Num 33:51-53 KJV)

Did Israel follow those commands? No. And this was their punishment:

"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them." (Num 33:55-56 KJV)

And what had God thought to do unto those nations that Israel was supposed to drive out?

"And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God." (Deu 8:19-20 KJV)

That is history. Besides, Abraham received his "promised land," in heaven, where he desired it to be. If the land of Canaan was Abraham's "promised land," then why was he a stranger in it? This is Abraham's promised land:

"Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." (Heb 11:12-16 KJV)

One final point that I rarely hear: God was so angry at Israel that he threatened to destroy the lot of them and give the promises to Moses, and Moses' seed:

"And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee [Moses] a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?" (Exo 32:9-11 KJV)

Moses intervened on Israel's behalf; otherwise we would have been talking about Moses like we talk about Jacob. But Moses also prophesied that it was just a matter of time for Israel to remain in God's good grace:

"For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended." (Deu 31:27-30 KJV)

In Deut 28 Moses prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem, in remarkable detail. He also prophesied this:

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." (Acts 3:22-23 KJV)

Therefore, anyone who teaches that Israel has an alternate route to salvation is doing a great disservice to Israel, and frankly is a false prophet or teacher.

Philip

>>>Well, it seems you are living in heaven already. Nothing possibly could ever improve upon your lot in life for all eternity future.<<<

Would you mind putting things in context?

>>>My God still has a Plan, in which the Great Tribulation is still to come.<<<

Then your god is not my God. Jesus was crystal clear that the great tribulation would occur in the lifetime of his disciples, and I challenge you to PROVE otherwise without spiritualizing the scriptures. That should be simple enough. You can start with Matthew 24:34 where Jesus was answering questions raised by his disciples:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Mat 24:34 KJV)

If you cannot explain that use of the term "this generation" in the same terms where Jesus used the term "this generation" in other passages, you have no proof, whatsoever: only innuendo derived from spiritualization of the scriptures.

Philip

Boatbums, I thought you did not want to debate Dispensationalism with me? I guess times change.

>>>All one has to do is read the prophets of God when they spoke of Him returning the Jews (nation of Israel) to the land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - a promise He has NEVER rescinded.<<<

Those are all old testament prophecies which even the Jews did not understand (and still don't.) What makes you think the founders of Dispensationalism understood them any better than the Jews?

All those promises were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the seed of Abraham.

<"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)

All those prophesies were fulfilled in the heavenly Sion and New Jerusalem: the Church:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." (Heb 12:22-24 KJV)

"Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." (Heb 11:12-16 KJV)

That is pretty clear to me!

LOL! I just thought of one of the visions of John in the Revelation:

"…Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God … " (Rev 21:9-10 KJV)

Compare that mountain with this one from the old testament:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. " (Isa 2:2-4 KJV)

Is that the land-based Jerusalem and mount Zion, or is that the heavenly Sion and New Jerusalem? I would also consider this passage before making a decision:

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." (Rev 21:24 KJV)

Do all nations physically travel to mount Zion (like a pilgrimage to Mecca,) or are John and Isaiah referring to the world-wide spiritual Church, available everywhere two or more are gathered together in His name?

Philip

>>>I see no issues with his approach. It is clear he saw the 7 churches as literal and the messages to them as literal, and that such assurances, rebukes and promises apply to the church in all ages to include today. I would not go as far as he did in applying an historic attribution, but in any era there are elements of the 7 Asian churches in all churches.<<<

That, my friend, is a clear case of spiritualizing the scriptures.

Philip

>>>He would also have to explain how Nero desolated the Temple in 70AD when he had already died two years earlier in 68AD.<<<

What does that statement have anything to do with what is written? Did you make up that requirement, or did someone else make it up?

>>>Then they have to explain how God doesn’t keep His promises to the nation of Israel.<<<

God kept his promises to Abraham and his seed, which was in Christ. The fact that you do not understand the New Testament does not change the scripture. The nation of Israel, on the other hand, did not keep its promises to God. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

>>>God has once again established the nation of Israel on part of that land but will soon give them the entire area promised them for an “everlasting possession”.<<<

Are you certain that is not the word of the devil. Even some Jewish scholars do not believe it is the work of God.

Who is the "nation of Israel?" Are they those who worship a strange, anti-Christian God found in Talmudic Judaism. Are they the blood kin of the old nation of Israel? Who exactly is the "nation of Israel?" How do you define a Jew? Are they the true bloods of old Israel who descendents never married outside their race?

One other point: has God became a respector of persons in this age, when he said many times that he was not, and warned us not to be? Frankly, I don't think so.

Therefore, I will assume all Christians are the children of Abraham, and all Christians have the sole right to the promised land above any non-Christian, regardless of race.

Philip

You use all that scripture but don’t seem to understand that Israel could not have broken the covenant God made. Abraham didn’t make that covenant with God. Abraham was asleep while that covenant was made.

Genesis 15: 12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

It was God who made a covenant with Himself on behalf of Abraham. He was both the smoking furnace and the burning lamp passing between the halves of the carcasses.

Genesis 15: 17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

The Abrahamic Covenant is an unconditional covenant.

Genesis 15:18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

There were no conditions that Abraham or the Israelites had to keep in that covenant.

God promised to bring them back together as a nation in that land under one King and a combined nation once again.

Jeremiah 31: 8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. 9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. 10 Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

Ezekiel 37: 19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

Paul told us that would happen after God had taken from the Gentiles a people.

Rom 11:25 "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in."

No where in scripture can you find a place to make the covenant where God made the land of Canaan the land for the Israelites either conditional on Israel keeping the covenant or that the land of Canaan meant something other than the physical land of Canaan.

Israel was NOT combined as a nation with the tribe of Judah in 70AD so those prophesies can not have been fulfilled.

>> The nation of Israel, on the other hand, did not keep its promises to God. I challenge you to prove otherwise.<<

As I showed you in my last post, there were no conditions that Israel had to keep as far as the inheritance of the land was concerned.

>> Are you certain that is not the word of the devil. Even some Jewish scholars do not believe it is the work of God.<<

Surely you can’t be serious. If you do not consider these the words of God we have nothing more to discuss.

Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

1 Chronicles 16:14-18 "He is The Lord our God; His judgments are in all the earth. He is mindful of His covenant for ever, of the word that He commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham, His sworn promise to Isaac, which He confirmed as a statute to Jacob, as an everlasting covenant to Israel, saying, "To you I will give the land of Canaan, as your portion for an inheritance."

>>Who is the "nation of Israel?"<<

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

>>Are they the blood kin of the old nation of Israel?<<

Yes!

>>Who exactly is the "nation of Israel?"<<

The genetic offspring of the twelve sons of Isaac.

>>How do you define a Jew?<<

It doesn’t matter who I define as a Jew. God said all of Israel will be joined together in the land of Canaan.

>>One other point: has God became a respector of persons in this age, when he said many times that he was not, and warned us not to be? Frankly, I don't think so.<<

Doesn’t matter what you think. God promised what He promised and won’t change that. We are in a different management period as per Paul which will end when the full number of the Gentiles has been brought in.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

>>Therefore, I will assume all Christians are the children of Abraham, and all Christians have the sole right to the promised land above any non-Christian, regardless of race.<<

Assuming doesn’t make it so. We have been grafted in but are NOT assigned to each of the tribes. The promises regarding the land of Canaan were made to a specific genetic people. God is currently re-gathering those people into the land He promised them.

>>What does that statement have anything to do with what is written? Did you make up that requirement, or did someone else make it up?<<

It is written that the one who stands in the temple is the one who goes to war with Israel and the one who God destroys at Armageddon.

Galatians was not an epistle to Gentilize the church.

Here is your ham sandwich, Jew. Eat it and be a Christian./s

>>>The Abrahamic Covenant is an unconditional covenant.<<<

You are ignoring the plain text of the scriptures. This is the scripture you posted.

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: (Genesis 15:18)

I believe it to be virtually impossible to understand that verse without the benefit of the new covenant: the New Testament; or, more specifically this verse where Paul explains that the promises were not made to 'SEEDS' as in plural or many, but to ONLY ONE SEED, which is Christ. That is where the Jews of old failed my people, and that is where the founders of dispensationalism have failed their followers:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)

Paul also said this:

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29 KJV)

Therefore, as a seed of Abraham through Christ, I am making my claim at this time to a share of all the promises to Abraham and his seed, as should every Christian.

>>>God promised to bring them back together as a nation in that land under one King and a combined nation once again<<<

They are back together under one King, whose name is Christ, whose throne is in heaven, which will forever be located in heaven. They serve Christ as priests in his holy temple. Those who came later: those not of the remnant from the days of Christ, such as myself, have only one route to Christ. You can find that route mentioned many times in the New Testament, and it is NOT achieved through animal sacrifices or Old Testament rituals.

Philip

>>>Israel was NOT combined as a nation with the tribe of Judah in 70AD so those prophesies can not have been fulfilled.<<<

Actually, they were bound together in Christ, and is explained in these verses:

"…I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God. I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment." (Eze 34:11-16 KJV)

Note the term, "high mountains of Israel." That is referring to the spiritual area of the heavenly mount Sion, where the holy city New Jerusalem is located. It is the same one John spoke of in the Revelation. The destruction of the fat and strong was the destruction of Jerusalem and other cities of Israel by the Roman Armies.

Here Jesus makes it clear that he came only for the lost sheep, as implied by Ezekiel:

"… I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mat 15:24 KJV)

And to whom did he send his disciples? To the lost sheep:

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." (Mat 10:5-8 KJV)

And Jesus promised to come back for them in their generation, which he did:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Mat 10:22-23 KJV)

Jesus' fold was the house of Judah. The other fold was the house of Israel. He bound them together (the remnant) into one fold:

"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (John 10:14-16 KJV)

Philip

Frankly it is not spiritualizing scriptures. To say so would mean we cannot apply the NT epistles written to specific churches of that time today. There are elements of Corinth and Ephesus and others within the body of Christ today. I stated I disagreed with Scofield’s assessment of attributing the various churches with periods of time. That is actually a historicist approach.

I did quote scriptures. I posted clearly from Revelation 19 which is the run up and description of the second coming of Jesus Christ. You responded the the battle was fought in Heaven which implies there was not or will not be a second literal coming of Christ. Therefore your position as I read it was the second coming was not literal but allegory.

Then you stated Nero was the beast of Revelation, and by stating so shift to a literal fulfillment of a world leader as the beast. But when we get to Revelation 19 you shifted back to allegory or symbolism when it came time for the defeat of the beast and his armies.

But the final burden in this sequence is the humiliation of the once proud Egyptians being led away captive by the Assyrians in little or no clothing. The following to me, are the two key verses [...] Whatever the case, when the Lord arrived on a cloud[...]

But one cannot take a couple verses out of the context of the passage and say, "See, Assyria!"... I notice that you didn't address the specific points I requested... And I will add to those the final end of 'the Assyrian', the 'king of stern countenance'... If you would care to read the end of this burden, you must then identify Sennacherib as Lucifer... And if Lucifer was defeated at THAT point, then there is no cause for the first coming, not to mention the second coming, whether Jerusalem 70 ce, or Jerusalem *now*.

Again, my take on your position is that you seem to ignore a TON of this prophecy, assuming it is allegory, or flowery language, without even an attempt to make it fit your theory.

No offense meant, but to me, the errata produced in any such attempt is what proves the theory wrong. That errata is what causes me to believe the prophecy cannot have reached fulfillment:

The Nile has never been turned - History would have recorded it. However, for the first time ever, the Aswan Dam makes it possible to turn the Nile.

Likewise, Egypt, Judah, and Assyria being compatriots and children of the Father - The ONLY time one can point to for fulfillment is during the early Christian Period during the Roman occupation - Never before that time - And THAT time was hardly the bucolic time the passage describes.

I suppose that same time could be the time when Egypt 'quaked in fear' of the House of Judah, being bowed before Messiah, but that really is a stretch, as the passage seems to imply more permanence - Whether or not, it certainly was not fulfilled in the Assyrian campaign.

So what now? Is YHWH a liar? Is He prone to exaggeration? Just talkin' smack? I don't think so - I think that E_V_E_R_Y_T_H_I_N_G will be fulfilled in an overflowing manner - Tamped down, baker's dozen, as exact and precise as His foretelling of the fulfillment brought forth in Messiah in the spring feasts.

So my only take has to be that Is 19 will reach it's fulfillment beyond today - And with the Middle East ripe and heading toward a caliphate, if things don't turn another direction, these things will be happening right in front of us very soon.

Philip, you keep going back to your alagorized vesion using passages that don’t address the land of Canaan. You cannot just brush that aside as if it doesn’t exist. That was a specific physical piece of land that was promised to the nation of Israel and was to be everlasting. Forcing a meaning into the “high mountains of Israel” does not erase the covenant God made to give that piece of land to the nation of Israel to which they were promised to be gathered back to, and are coming back to.

>> Paul explains that the promises were not made to 'SEEDS' as in plural or many, but to ONLY ONE SEED, which is Christ.<<

Which promises? It wasn’t the covenant about the land. Even if it was you wouldn’t be able to get around the fact that Christ will rule on the physical land of Canaan.

>> Therefore, as a seed of Abraham through Christ, I am making my claim at this time to a share of all the promises to Abraham and his seed, as should every Christian.<<

You and the Mormons have a serious problem with that approach. Which of the tribes out of which God will take the remnant of 144,000 are you?

>> They are back together under one King, whose name is Christ, whose throne is in heaven, which will forever be located in heaven.<<

Please show us from scripture where the land of Canaan is in heaven.