Irresistable Grace (Calvinist humor)

[dangus]

I’ll certainly agree that God does not damn all those who ever were angry, but I will assert that one is not ready to stand before the throne of the Allmighty One until he has let go of anger.

[jonno]

There is no improper relationship.

(don't ask me about 'was')

[armydoc]

Key to the anathema is “that God produces the evil as well as the good works.”

We would agree that God is not the author of evil. Practically, that just means that He uses secondary means to manipulate the evil already present in the world for His holy purposes. He gave Satan permission to reign all sorts of evil on Job. He hardened Pharoh's heart to inflict all manner of evil on the Hebrews. Note that God didn't manufacture the evil in Satan or Pharoh; He merely unleashed it.

[dangus]

As long as you agree that God does not produce the evil, I’d say you agree with that part of the anathema. And yes, the anathema specifically includes the same caveats you do: “not only by permission, but also properly and of himself.”

The anathema is against antinomialists who argue such things as that Judas was not at fault, himself. Or as the anathema directly states, if anyone states “the betrayal of Judas is no less his own proper work than the vocation of Paul, let him be anathema.”

It’s the second part of the anathema which aimed at Calvinists, but which provides perhaps enough room for some reconciliation with Calvinists. That part condemns those who say, “others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.”

Notice that key to this anathematization is the belief that God’s own power predestined them to evil. Although God knew them to be evil, he did not desire them to be evil, and they are not evil by his work. And that is where the Catholic v Calvinist distinction of free will is so important.

[Gamecock]

Then why are some going to Hell?

Did God:
-Create them knowing they would reject Jesus?
-Rescue some and not others?
-Really not know and is surprised by what happens?

[FatherofFive]

and he hardens whom he wants to harden

I don't disagree with Paul.

They may be hardened, but that is not a permanent situation. The Prodigal son, as an example. But where does Paul says God creates beings to be dammed to hell with no chance of softening their hardened hearts, and no ability to accept the Grace of God freely given? A hardened heart can change.

So a simple yes/no question - Does God create people who are predestined to hell?

[kosciusko51]

Was Judas predestined to hell? If yes, why not others?

John 17:12

"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."

[kosciusko51]

Besides, the better question is why does God choose to save some of those who have rebelled against Him, instead of sending all to hell? “For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God ...”

[FatherofFive]

Was Judas predestined to hell?

I don't believe so. Judas couldn't accept the grace given freely by God.

While God predestines some people, he simply passes over the others. They will not come to God, but it is because of their inherent sin, not because God damns them.

[FatherofFive]

If I can hijack my own thread that was initially intended for humor

That was a very funny post.

[kosciusko51]

Then who are the two groups Paul talking about in Romans 9:22-23 when he says, “objects of His wrath—prepared for destruction” and “objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory”?

[Louis Foxwell]

We can not save ourselves. But we can choose to be saved. We throw ourselves off the cliff, take a giant step into the unknown, die to ourselves that we might live in Christ. We take a leap of faith and in that leap we are caught and held by our Heavenly Father.
The leap does not save it is simply another loss. It is an act of surrender, of giving up, of losing oneself, of dying. It is ultimate surrender, self sacrifice, an act of sublime loss with only the hope that the promise given us is true.
From that moment we belong to Him. He is our guide, our stay, our comforter and our keeper. In Him we have life. All else is death.

[armydoc]

But where does Paul says God creates beings to be dammed to hell with no chance of softening their hardened hearts, and no ability to accept the Grace of God freely given?

Paul's illustration of the relationship of the potmaker to the pots in Romans 9 is telling. The pots have no say in the matter, of course. They are inanimate. They are dead, just as are the unregenerate. In particular, 9:22 is explicit that some are created "for destruction".

So a simple yes/no question - Does God create people who are predestined to hell?

Yes. To His Glory.

If you can't accept that, I would suggest your view of God is too small.

[RichInOC]

“If election is a crime, then let me be guilty.”

[dangus]

After 2012, I’m starting to think elections might be a crime.

[PieterCasparzen]

you’ll have to decide who is good and who is evil

No. You give them a free will to see if they will listen to your message. They decide if they choose good or evil. There is no question of the elect. The problem is 'double pre-destination' when your god creates beings to suffer forever in hell, with no chance whatsoever for salvation.

Some people become pastors; most Christians, when asked about various moral issues will speak of the Bible. They thus offer testimony that is read or heard by people who have not yet converted.

The testimoney of those people has an effect on other people being drawn to God.

If person A in the year 1835 converts, writes books, and in 1997 those books are put on a website by a person B who just converted, then in 2007 I (person C) read those books after coming across them accidentally in a web search, and those books lead me to conversion, we have a path A -> B -> C, of two people happening to be essential to another's conversion.

But if person A had never converted, person C's web search would not have revealed their books and started the conversion process for person C.

Now we can say God would have provided person C with some other initial encounter with God's word, but we still would have the prequisites to that encounter that would need to take place in order to have that encounter happen.

If person A truly did have free will, God would need to have waited to see whether person A converted in order to even begin to plan how persons B and C would do what they did.

There is either predestination or not, there can't be half predestination. It's an all or nothing, binary, it's either on or off.

If there is no predestination, of course, that implies complete "randomness", yet that's not the case, since we know that there are some observable laws of physics.

Physical matter doesn't just magically do things; the weather, automobiles, peoples' brains - they're all governed by the laws of physics.

[jonno]

I will assert that one is not ready to stand before the throne of the Allmighty One until he has let go of anger.

Agreed

(Lord, I pray that I will not be seen as a stranger - one whom you never knew - on that day...Matthew 7:21-23)

[FatherofFive]

So a simple yes/no question - Does God create people who are predestined to hell? Yes. To His Glory. If you can't accept that, I would suggest your view of God is too small.

So your god created people to be eternally punished. And somehow that gives him glory.

A god who creates people to be eternally punished with no chance of redemption is evil.

[Gamecock]

Did God create people who who knew would not be saved?

[kosciusko51]

FoF,

You keep arguing against the plain Word of God as presented in Romans 9. Your argument is not with us, but the Word itself, and the objections you raise have already been asked and answered by that passage of scripture.

Grace & peace,
K51