Posted on 01/09/2014 9:09:07 AM PST by SeekAndFind
"I could never believe in a God who sends people to hell." This common objection, while sincere, is nevertheless untrue and illogical. How can you say it is "untrue" Dan if someone really means it? This is how. Just walk through the reasoning with me if you will.
First of all, think about what the person is saying. He is saying that if the biblical teaching about heaven and hell is correct, then he would never believe in a God who allows people to spend eternity in a place of suffering. This rationale is both illogical and irrational. His objection is based on a premise that the biblical teaching about hell is correct, which is a premise he already rejects.
It's like saying, "I could never believe in a God who sends people to a place which I am convinced doesn't exist." Huh? How do you know you could never believe such a thing when you do not yet even believe in hell, yet alone believe in Christ?
An unbeliever is someone who does not believe in Jesus as Savior. And I have yet to meet an unbeliever who is convinced that hell as described in the Bible is real. So an unbeliever's lack of faith has to do with a lack of faith in Jesus, rather than a lack of faith in hell. He is first an unbeliever in Jesus, and only later an unbeliever in hell.
We can all agree that the following statement is true: "The biblical description regarding hell and those who go there is either true or false." So the objection is that the person would never believe in God if the biblical description is true. I disagree, and I think you will too in a couple minutes. Here is why.
The biblical teaching, as well as the personal experience of Christians, is that a believer is given a new heart and begins to love God because of what Christ has done to save his soul. Millions of Christians believe in God while also believing the difficult doctrine that God sends people to hell. It is not only possible to hold these two positions, but many Christians accept both of them simultaneously.
So it is possible. It does happen. I, for one, believe in Christ as my Savior, and also in the reality of hell as described in the Bible.
It is irrational to say, "I could never believe in a God who sends people to hell." It's like saying, "Even if millions of others claim to believe in both Christ and hell, I could never believe such a thing myself." That is untrue. You could believe it.
Let's say you were convinced that both heaven and hell are real places where people spend eternity. If you were convinced of that fact, it would be absurd for you to say, "I would rather go to hell than believe in God." No you wouldn't. You don't really mean it. Five minutes in hell would convince you otherwise. If you truly believed you were going to spend eternity in the same place of misery and agony where you spent the previous five minutes, you wouldn't stick to your unbelief and your rejection of Christ. You would know at that point that hell is real, and you would want any way out.
There is no way you would choose to stay in hell "just to prove a point." It wouldn't happen. You would become a believer very quickly. And you would see that you can indeed believe in a God who sends people to hell. There is no one who despises his soul so much that he would choose eternal punishment in hell over eternal pleasure with God in heaven.
And there is no one, except Satan, who hates God so much that he would spend five minutes in hell only to say, "I still don't want that new heart, and that new life, and that peace in paradise." It simply isn't logical or rational to say that a person would stick to this flawed position "just to make a point." In that situation, you would swallow your pride, bow your knee to your Creator, and accept Christ as your Savior and your only path to paradise.
If you are going to reject God's love for you as demonstrated in the death of His Son on the cross, it is because you are choosing to reject Jesus as the Messiah and Savior. But it is not because of what the Bible teaches about hell. People only think that is one reason they don't believe in God, but it isn't. It is not a logical position to claim such a thing. It is completely unreasonable. Man loves his personal comfort way too much to stick to that position "just to make a point." It wouldn't happen. If he could get it, man would definitely ask God for a lifeline after just five minutes in hell.
But of course the Bible does not offer a shred of hope that such a lifeline will be available to people after they are sent to hell. Once a person enters hell, reality quickly sinks in. People then see that their perception while on earth was terribly wrong. They see that they could indeed have previously believed in a God who sends people to hell, even though at the time they may have sincerely said they "could never believe in such a God."
Do you know why Jesus spoke at least as much about hell as He did about heaven? Because heaven and hell are actual places where people do exist forever. The biblical teaching about hell is probably the second toughest thing in Scripture to grasp. So what's the first? Here it is: God loved you enough to send His only Son to die in your place on the cross. Seriously, who does that? God did.
The Lord wants you in heaven forever and not in hell. If you repent of your sins and receive Christ as your Savior, you will be saved and safe forever, period. (see Mark 1:15, John 3:16, John 1:12, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, & 1 John 5:13)
At the same time, if you continue to reject Christ, that's on you. But either way, it is nonsensical for someone to make the illogical statement, "I could never believe in a God who sends people to hell." And I suspect you now see why that premise, albeit sincere, is false and illogical.
Everything just makes more sense when you are trusting Jesus to forgive your sins.
-- Dan Delzell is the pastor of Wellspring Lutheran Church in Papillion, Neb. He is a regular contributor to The Christian Post.
My son is going through a crisis of faith right now because of God’s orders in the Old Testament through His prophets to destroy the enemies of Israel, down to the last baby.
I went through the same crisis years ago - and never resolved it, except that I have come to trust God enough to wait for answers in heaven.
A couple of quick points. First, nowhere in the Bible is hell ever said to be punishment; rather, it is torment (Gk. basanos). If hell were punishment, it would not fit the crime. Sin's punishment is death (Romans 6:23), which is why Jesus' death paid the price for our sin. Moreover, when Jesus speaks of "the thief," evidently meaning the devil, in John 10:10, He says that Satan steals, kills, and destroys--except that the word for "destroy" is apolese from apollymi, the word in John 3:16 translated "perish," and also referenced as the name of the "angel of the bottomless pit" in Revelation 9:10, apollyon. Death is not the same as hell, and hell is not a punishment for sin.
So if hell is torment rather than punishment, what is the torment? It can only be the lack of the experience of the presence of God, whereas the "heaven" of heaven is the perpetual complete experience of the presence of God--and this life is the perpetual but only partial experience of the presence of God, with unbelievers only experiencing God's presence indirectly via nature, and believers experiencing God's presence directly, and to the extent that they ask, seek, and knock. We experience some torment in this life because we experience our "aloneness," our separation from God, and we either attempt to overcome that aloneness by seeking God's presence in our lives, or by substituting psycho-physical pleasures, which are always eventually unsuccessful. In hell, however, those who rejected God's offer of reconciliation obtain the separation from God that they wanted, just as in heaven, those who accepted God's offer of reconciliation obtain the re-connection to God that they wanted.
-— The problem of of hell is that it assigns infinite torture as punishment for a finite number of evil deeds committed during a finite life.-—
A single mortal (grave) sin against an infinitely good God is deserving of infinite punishment, simply on a logical level. Fortunately, we know from divine revelation that God is merciful, as long as we “repent and believe.’
Well, yes, I believe God’s nature to be good, and that He is not arbitrary, but there are accounts in the Bible, and matters of creation that are hard for me to reconcile with the Good as I understand it. I still have faith, without everything being reconciled.
Some people find no moral conflicts and have faith, and others are brought up short by moral conflicts and lose faith or cannot come to faith, even when they desire it.
I do believe that those that are not written in the book of Life will not spend eternity in the presence of God. This begs the question, can one live outside the presence of God?
Well, you are not alone in this.
If God keeps it in existence for all eternity then it couldn't, which is shown from Scripture:
Mt 25: 41, 46; Dan 12:22; 2 Thess 1:7-9 etc.
1. Hell is eternal because it’s cast into the lake of fire, which is also eternal:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
The Holy Spirit didn’t say “temporary” destruction. That’s the Greek “aionios” meaning “perpetual, eternal, everlasting.” And “destruction” is the Greek “olethros” meaning “death, destruction, punishment, ruin.”
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
2. God is who casts people into hell:
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
3. The author also fails to recognize that the spiritually dead can’t do spiritually logical things:
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Here’s people who see the wrath of God with their own eyes, and yet don’t repent. They’d rather have rocks and mountains fall on them to hide them from God, rather than repent. They’re obviously completely reprobate, damned with no hope of salvation.
This is part of the reason:
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The other part includes such passages as Romans 9.
The Scriptures claim the damned will: Post #47.
Actually, Hell is thrown into the lake of fire. And the lake of fire is an object in Revelation, the most steeped in symbolism book in the bible. There is no way I believe it is a literal lake of fire. The surface of the Sun would maybe be called a lake of fire to some.
Also, when dealing with eternity we must be careful about ascribing it to a length of time, even if infinite. The linear time in which we live is a part of creation and this creation will be destroyed. So whenever I see phrases in the bible like “eternity”, forever and ever, etc. I see it as trying to explain the color “red” to a person that only sees in grayscale.
= If God keeps it in existence for all eternity, which is shown from Scripture, then it couldn't:
The flaw in your son’s reasoning is he is focused too much on the things of this world. What is the final fate of those killed? That is the question. This world is but a flash. Judging God based on what he does in it is not really prudent. After all, I would gladly give up this life if it meant I would spend an eternity with Him.
I had similar crises in faith when I was a new believer, btw.
That said—we do agree— but I add “And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear,pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh —Jude verses 22,23 The American Patriots Pocket Bible
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
My understanding in context is that only Satan is an immortal being - and cannot die. He will be tormented forever and ever, as he is a spirit being. Not so as it applies to mortal men. We require a resurrection to Eternal Life, it is not inherent in ourselves to live forever as scripture tells us that the 'wages of sin is death'. Consider that Revelation 20 also tells us that 'death and hades' are ALSO thrown into the Lake of fire while Revelation 21:4 tells us that death itself 'will be no more'. So the logical point is that if 'death' once thrown in the lake of fire 'will be no more' - how can we then believe mortal men who are wicked will exist in this lake of fire for eternity?
In the book of Revelation, “the lake of fire” serves not to denote a literal place where immortal souls are endlessly tortured throughout eternity (the traditional concept of hell), but as a vivid and fearful “sign” or image symbolizing the reality of ultimate destruction, obliteration or complete eradication.
The lake of fire (defined specifically as ‘the second death’) thus represents a point where that which is figuratively thrown into it—particularly all that is contrary to God’s righteous will, including those whose names are not found written in the book of life—are eventually “brought to nothing,” including death which “shall not exist any more” (Rev. 20:14; 21:4, 8, Darby Translation).
This would harmonize well with, and appear to represent the ultimate fulfillment of, the Psalmist’s prayer that “sinners be consumed out of the earth” and that “the wicked be no more” (Psalm 104:35)
This corresponds to Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 15:24-25 about the point in time when “the last enemy, death, will be brought to nothing [‘destroyed’ (RSV), ‘defeated’ (TEV), ‘abolished’ (NEB)],” and in 15:54 when death is finally “swallowed up in victory.” This is, clearly, the same point poetically described in the book of Revelation when death and hades are figuratively hurled into the symbolic lake of fire, “the second death.”
This is my understanding - but as I said before - not a Salvation issue. To believe in a Judgment and that belief in Christ as the atoning sacrifice for our sin which has earned us death - and that our promise of Life is in HIM - then that alone is the Gospel. The doctrine of hell is not the Gospel.
I should mention that there is no Daniel 12:22.
However, we both agree that the fate is eternal. In a previous post I also mentioned that the lake of fire is almost certainly something other than a literal “lake of fire”. I also, in a previous post mentioned that I don’t believe “eternal” means what we with our limited understanding of time think it means. But the clear point of all scripture regarding both the saved and the unsaved is that after the great white throne judgement, their fates are sealed. One to eternal life and the other to eternal death, destruction, perish, etc. Only one side of that equation uses any word to even suggest the presence of “life” in their eternal condition.
For myself, I believe in a literal lake of fire. Does that make me a bad person? Still, there might be other interpretations, and I’m not God’s personal secretary.
The important thing is to avoid going there, and to share the Good News with those that are.
The old creation will pass away, but there will be a new one. Other than eternal life and a lack of death, what are the important differences between the old one and the new? I don’t know, and neither does the most accomplished theologian.
Still, I think we will still experience time as linear.
Your choice for eternity is either God forever or yourself forever. In hell you have yourself forever. In heaven you have God forever.
If you spend your time on earth spitting in His eye a loving God will not force you to spend eternity kneeling at His feet.
"The biblical description regarding hell and those who go there is either true or false."
The unspoken premise behind that is there is only one interpretation of scripture regarding hell. Many Christians have read the same Bible as the author, prayerfully, asking the Holy Spirit for guidance in understanding, and come to the conclusion that death is not eternal (miserable) life.
I don't care to debate the hell issue. My reason for posting was the express my opinion that the author is dishonest, disrespectful of Christians who disagree with his interpretation, does NOTHING to bring souls to Jesus, and only causes distension among Christians.
I look at the translation of “they” in Revelation 20:10. The question I ask is - does this scripture state that the Beast and the false prophet will spend eternity being tormented in burning hell-fire with the Devil?
First, I look at the verse you cited. “And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
If you have an RSV or other good translation the word “are” is in italics. This means that translators added the word ‘they”, and that it is not part of the original Greek manuscripts. A more accurate English rendering would be “were cast”—since at the time of this verse, the Beast and false prophet have already been cast into the lake of fire (cf. Revelation 19:20). The pronoun “they” in the next sentence is also a translator’s interpretation, added to the New King James Version but rightly absent from the King James Version.
. . . Thus, an accurate translation of the verse would be: “The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the Beast and false prophet were cast, and he shall be tormented day and night, forever and ever.”
. . . Now, the sense and meaning of this verse becomes clear. Satan, the Devil, will be thrown into the lake of fire. He will be the one who is tormented day and night.
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