Posted on 01/08/2014 1:11:34 PM PST by DouglasKC
Jesus Christ's Disciples Understood Him to Be the Creator
When the early followers of Christ say Jesus is the One through whom all things were created, they are clearly saying that Jesus is God.
The book of Hebrews speaks of the Son as the Being through whom God created the worlds (Hebrews 1:2) and who "sustains all things by his powerful word" (verse 3, NRSV). Only God is great enough to do such things.
John confirms that Jesus was the divine Word through whom God created the universe: "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made" (John 1:3; see verses 1-3, 14).
Paul states quite clearly that "God ...created all things through Jesus Christ" (Ephesians 3:9). He elsewhere writes of Jesus: "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16). He adds in verse 17, "and in Him all things consist."
The Old Testament presents God alone as Creator of the universe (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 40:25-26, 28). When the early followers of Christ say Jesus is the One through whom all things were created, they are clearly saying that Jesus is God.
Jesus claimed to be all that God is, and the disciples believed and taught it. They understood that Jesus was "the express [exact] image of His [God's] person" (Hebrews 1:3) and "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15), and that "in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" (Colossians 2:9, NRSV).
They understood precisely who He was and still is from His own words and actions. There was no question in their minds. They had seen Him prove it time and time again. They would go to their martyrdom firm in this conviction.
“Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him
Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”
He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.” [John 6: 49-71]
That is why in the Gospel of John, there is no last supper reference, the “bread of life” discourse takes over for that.
I thought that Christ insituted the sacrament of baptism on the day He got baptized and His Heavenly Father spoke to Him right after that.
Douglas, I’ve noticed that you have a very smiley way of deflecting and ignoring questions.
What tradition now refers to as "the last supper" occurred on Passover, one of the Lord Jesus Christ's commanded assemblies as shown in Leviticus:
Lev 23:4 'These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times.
Lev 23:5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the LORD's Passover.
So what about Baptism?
There is a massive amount of new testament scripture that shows that baptism is what Christians do and are expected to do in response to the calling of the Lord. For example when after being convicted that Christ was Lord some asked "What doe we do now?":
Act_2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The book of Hebrews affirms absolutely that baptism is a fundamental, foundational belief and practice of Christians:
Heb 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
When did he breathe on the Apostles, giving them the Holy Spirit and giving them power to forgive sins?
There's probably a few places we'll depart on belief here. He breathed the spirit on the disciples shortly after his resurrection and the received the indwelling on Pentecost.
You'll have to clarify that statement about forgiving sins. We all have the power to forgive those who sin against us. Is that what you mean?
We all know that Confirmation is connected with the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, so do you have Confirmation?
I observe the day of Pentecost which is the day that the holy spirit came. I observe it as the formation of his church and with the great appreciation and recognition that the holy spirit has in the life of Christians.
What about the Anointing of the Sick? Jesus healed a lot of people through prayer and touch.
Certainly. This was a standard practice and well documented biblically. Again it's standard, foundational part of Christianity as outlined in scripture.
When is the Sacrament of Marriage edified by Christ? Think of the Wedding of Cana.
Marriage is affirmed by Christ throughout scripture. Not only in the wedding at Cana but marriage is the representation of Christ and the church.
When did he ordain the Apostles, thus instituting the Sacrament of Holy Orders?
Making exceptions for the terminology this occurs here:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
Thank you for your courteous response. It was a pleasure to spend time in study and I'm looking forward to learning more about you.
I don't think you understand that the Worldwide Church of God and United Church of God are different churches and different organizations. Herbert Armstrong was dead for almost a decade before UCG started. They are different legally, in their government structure and philosophically.
I was never a member of Worldwide but from my understanding it had big problems brought about by many factors. Primarily I would say that it was caused by the very structure...of having one man being "in charge" of the church in what amounted to a lifetime appointment. When he dies, he "passes" it on to someone else. This is still a problem with some other churches of God in which the "leader" has set themselves up.
This is not the structure of United. United is administered by a 12 man board, a council of elders, with Christ as the head of the church. The board members are voted into office by their fellow elders. Each term is 3 years. The composition of the board can and does change. The board appoints the President and the president runs the corporate church. The position of president serves the will of the board.
The structure works to circumvent those who might attempt to gain control of the church and try to run a one man show based on their beliefs. In the history of United there have been some who have tried this and failed.
About the only thing that Worldwide and UCG have in common is some shared doctrine. However even that is a stretch. Much of what the ministers of Worldwide taught was speculation, based upon doctrine. In many ways this was the equivalent of the oral law...or perhaps oral tradition.
When you bring up stuff like "they believe they'll have their own planet" and other such nonsense it's based on speculation that apparently ran rampant and was often taught as doctrine.
The following is from A Brief History of United Church of God:
The United Church of God, today active with congregations in more than 50 countries, began as a formal assembly in 1995.
Doctrinal distinctives of the Church include the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, a New Testament application of God's Holy Days (which Jesus also kept and which the Church believes are a literal representation of God's plan for humanity) and a firm belief that Jesus Christ will return to earth to institute a benevolent, world-encircling Kingdom of God.
As authoritative historical records clearly show, a number of extra-biblical practices entered the early church within a century after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Recognizing that fact, the United Church of God strives to directly mirror the beliefs and practices of the first-century teachings of Jesus and the original apostles. This leads the Church to choose not to participate in common worship practices that were added without biblical mandate, including the observance of Christmas and Easter.
Many of the current ministers and members of the United Church of God were once members of the Worldwide Church of God, a nonprofit corporation under the leadership of Herbert W. Armstrong until his death in 1986. A subsequent unwarranted shift toward nonbiblical practices and beliefs led numerous ministers and members to leave the fellowship of that organization.
Concerned with uneven administrative practices of the former assembly, more than 100 ordained ministers developed a new administrative structure that was more directly accountable to members and the ministry. A new 12-person Council of Elders, elected by a general assembly of all ordained ministers in United, was tasked with reviewing and independently documenting all core beliefs and doctrines of the Church, which above all must be true to the biblical record and not reliant on later divisive philosophical and theological traditions that were developed centuries after the original apostles. That task has been largely completed, and the Church's formal Statement of Fundamental Beliefs is published for all to see on our website.
Both biblical and secular history record that Christians in the first century possessed a strong focus on what Jesus described as the "good news" of the coming Kingdom of God. In its efforts to mirror that first-century Church and its original apostolic focus, the United Church of God fully embraces and teaches the same message that Christ and the apostles taught. Indeed, the open mission of the United Church of God, reflecting the direct commands given by Jesus to His disciples in Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15, focuses on this dual goal: "preaching the gospel, preparing a people." To achieve this end, the Church publishes a considerable amount of literature explaining and outlining biblical and historic records concerning the plan of salvation and the role of Jesus Christ in that plan. The Bible makes it clear that the ultimate reward of the saved is to enter the Kingdom of God.
However, as the Church encourages and supports its prophetic ministry, it insists that any speculative comments regarding biblical prophecies be labeled as such and not taught as authoritative doctrine. For example, while the prophetic consequences of rejecting God's law are made plain in the biblical record, the timing of when these events will specifically occur is not. As Jesus Himself told the apostles regarding this, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority" (Acts 1:7). Jesus did instruct those who would follow Him to have a sense of urgency toward overcoming sin through the power of the Holy Spirit and to prepare themselves as if the Kingdom could return at any moment, regardless of when Jesus might actually return to set up the literal Kingdom of God. "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming… Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:42, 44).
United's Council of Elders, which also elects the president of the assembly, oversees the strategic direction and activities of the Church. In its commitment to positive accountability, detailed reports of Council meetings and other relevant information are regularly published on our website. In addition, the Church strongly believes in fiscal accountability, and its financial records are externally audited annually by a qualified independent accounting firm. The unqualified opinions of the accounting audits are freely available online for review.
I hope that helps you with your understanding of the relationship between church organizations.
On the other hand these are fairly accurate summaries of what I think scripture teaches.
Your explanation of my beliefs though is lacking in that you've added your own "spin" and tone. And you've left out all scriptural proofs. However I will grant that you did link to relevant information.
I would urge that anyone who has questions to follow the links and look at the proofs from the bible for themselves.
Bottom line is that I believe in absolutely what the bible teaches on these things as does my church. I'm proud to stand up for the practices of and beliefs of Jesus Christ and the first disciples and proud to belong to a church that does that.
Well okay, again as far as it goes, minus the snark and the contempt, it's an okay summary.
But again quoting out of context, adding your context, and not quoting all the scriptural proofs doesn't accurately reflect my beliefs.
Exactly! Bingo! Just as Christ did and just as it's extensively detailed in scripture. Nice job!
This they believe, despite the fact that it was actually, hsitorically, celebrated everyday: “I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know that you have received, what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Blood of Christ” (Augustine, Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).
Do you observe this daily GPH?
The UCG teaches that we are bound to the Jewish feast days, a total of 7 per year: “We believe in the commanded observance of the seven annual Holy Days given to ancient Israel by God and kept by Jesus Christ, the apostles and the New Testament Church.”
Well, again the tone and language is not accurate. First of all they are the feast days of the Lord, Jesus Christ:
Lev 23:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
So the Lord, Jesus Christ, tells us in holy scripture, absolutely, that these are his feasts. That's why I observe them, to honor him. I'm not "bound". I observe them from love, gratitude, and for the spiritual help and blessing they are.
“So what about Baptism?” The UCG believes that baptism is through immersion and is necessary for salvation, and that the Holy Spirit is transmitted through the laying on of hands by UCG’s ministers.
You've mixed some truth with some not so truthful stuff here. Yes, scripture teaches absolutely that baptism and the laying on of hands is a fundamental, foundational practice of Christians:
Heb 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
These are STILL foundational beliefs of many Christians, including Catholicism.
IOW, if you are not baptized and have hands laid on you by the UCG, you are not in “God’s Family.”
This is 100% completely not true and not what UCG teaches nor is this what the vast majority of members of UCG believe in my experience.
My belief is that only Jesus Christ knows who are his. This can be and does include people from other Christian faiths. Yup, and that includes Catholics, LDS...and maybe...just maybe...orthodox Presbyterians. But hey, with God all things are possible. :-)
Does that mean I think that all Catholics or members of United Church of God or members of any other organization are Christians because they claim to be? Of course not. But we can get a pretty good idea of who is Christ's by the spiritual fruit they bear:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Thanks CatherineofAragon...let me explain the best I can.
I handle certain posters in certain ways depending on what I perceive to be their intent or their spiritual state. These ways are summed up thus:
Col 4:5 Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time.
Col 4:6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
1Pe_3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
Pro 26:4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.
Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
Mat_7:6 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
Hope it helps... :-)
“I don’t think you understand that the Worldwide Church of God and United Church of God are different churches and different organizations. Herbert Armstrong was dead for almost a decade before UCG started. They are different legally, in their government structure and philosophically.”
From the UCG website, an article titled “A Forgotten Hero: Herbert W. Armstrong”
“[Herbert Armstrong] came to understand that the Creator, God Almighty, exists and rules the universe. He discovered many proofs of the inspiration and authenticity of the Bible. In addition, the cause of all the world’s ills, as well as the solution that will come, were brought to light.
The missing dimension in knowledge came alive: What man is, why man was put on the earth, the purpose for which we were made. He also came to understand the way to peace, happiness and abundance. It all made sense! Here were revealed the answers—which neither science, education, government or religion had—to humanity’s troubles. The very gospel brought to the world by Jesus Christ had largely been rejected or ignored for 18 1/2 centuries.”
http://www.ucg.org/news/forgotten-hero-herbert-w-armstrong-1892-1986/
From Walter Martin’s book on the topic:
“Most of the splinter cults of Armstrongism retain the name ‘Church of God’ somewhere in their title. They mix legalism, including strict Sabbatarianism, with a variety of Armstrong’s leading doctrines. Two other noteworthy groups among these are the Global Church of God, located in San Diego, California, and the United Church of God in Arcadia, California. The former has a television following on two superstations covering much of the United States, while the latter publishes The Good News magazine and covers thirty television stations with programming.” (Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults, Ed. Hank Hanegraaff. Pg. 472)
The UCG in question here split in 95, when the Worldwide Church of God reformed and returned to Trinitarianism and rejected Armstrong’s teachings. Though, there’s like a hundred more offshoot groups out there, each one thinking they’re the true church of God on Earth. And the UCG itself has already spawned another offshoot, due to a dispute over abuse of control issues by their authorities.
“I’m not “bound”. I observe them from love, gratitude, and for the spiritual help and blessing they are.”
The UCG does in fact teach that its members are bound to them, calling them “Christian obligations” and the “Christian way of life,” that no true Christian “neglects” without risk. The quote I provided even called them “commanded,” not optional, or simply you choosing to follow Jewish dietary laws and feast days because you can.
It is the way the UCG differentiates between themselves and the alleged fakers:
“Millions of people claim to be Christian—followers of Jesus Christ. Yet their beliefs, practices and lifestyles differ greatly. Jesus said His true followers are “called, chosen and faithful.” How can we discern who His true disciples are?”
Salvation, according to the UCG, is through a “conversion’ process, and not all those who claim to be Christian, according to them, are actually Christian. They have wrong “religious beliefs” and “assumptions”:
“His warning [Christ’s warning, see link] should cause all of us to carefully consider our religious beliefs and assumptions. Why? Because many who claim to be His followers, who claim to have done great deeds in His name, will be rejected by Him. He will tell them, “I never knew you” (verse 23). How, then, can we distinguish the authentic disciples of Christ, who really are doing the will of the Father, from those who call Jesus “Lord” but neglect or refuse to do God’s will?”
http://www.ucg.org/booklet/transforming-your-life-process-conversion/who-are-gods-true-followers/
From the article titled “Is the laying on of hands necessary to receive the Holy Spirit?”
“The Bible gives us a clear answer. Paul came upon some believers in Ephesus who had been baptized by no less than John the Baptist. Yet they had not received the Holy Spirit for two reasons. One is that they did not have the laying on of hands. The other was that they apparently did not fully understand the Christian way of life, the covenant into which one enters through baptism.”
Note, the “Christian way of life”. Until John’s disciples could be indoctrinated into still maintaining the Mosaic dietary and feast days, and in living in obedience to the alleged UCG of the 1st century, they could not be saved. It goes on:
“What did their baptism by John accomplish? Undoubtedly, it helped prepare them for conversion, for he preached repentance. And it likely strengthened their resolve to obey God. But the baptism didn’t bring about their conversion or result in their receiving the Holy Spirit. Clearly, many factors have to be in order for that to take place, including knowledge of sin (the transgression of God’s law, 1 John 3:4), an awareness of the need for forgiveness, true repentance (turning from sin to obedience) and a clear understanding of the obligations of Christianity. In addition, the baptism should, under normal circumstances, be done by a minister of God’s true Church, followed by the laying on of hands and prayer to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Note that these are “obligations”, and that this, under “normal circumstances,” should be done by a “minister of God’s true church” UCG Inc., “followed by the laying on of hands” to receive the Holy Spirit.
http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/laying-hands-necessary-receive-holy-spirit
“This is 100% completely not true and not what UCG teaches nor is this what the vast majority of members of UCG believe in my experience.”
This is true, as seen in the links above.
I'm not sure how quoting an opinion piece from someone who used to be in Worldwide and is now in UCG is relevant to my statement. The article you linked to clearly says:
"At New York City’s Family Christian Club July 31, 2004, the speakers were assigned to speak on a forgotten hero. The author chose Herbert W. Armstrong, who was born on that day, and who died 20 years ago this month."
My statement was:
“I don’t think you understand that the Worldwide Church of God and United Church of God are different churches and different organizations. Herbert Armstrong was dead for almost a decade before UCG started. They are different legally, in their government structure and philosophically."
You quote someone who wrote and spoke about Herbert Armstrong. You will find a lot of people in UCG have opinions about Herbert Armstrong or the WorldWide Church of God. Big deal. You didn't refute or can't refute my initial statement so it still stands.
The UCG does in fact teach that its members are bound to them, calling them “Christian obligations” and the “Christian way of life,” that no true Christian “neglects” without risk. The quote I provided even called them “commanded,” not optional, or simply you choosing to follow Jewish dietary laws and feast days because you can.
Again you discounted my statement to basically make up your own statement about what I believe. As far as I know there's only one other person in my head besides me and that's Jesus Christ. :-)
There is a distinction between obedience springing from love as opposed to being forced to believe something from intimidation and fear. I believe the Lord does "command" his followers to follow his way of life and his way to happiness....the bible is his instruction book for us. That's only weird if one isn't used to looking at the bible to live a Godly life.
This is true, as seen in the links above.
Let me remind you, and the readers, that this was the exchange:
GPH: "IOW, if you are not baptized and have hands laid on you by the UCG, you are not in “God’s Family.”"
Me: “This is 100% completely not true and not what UCG teaches nor is this what the vast majority of members of UCG believe in my experience.”
Your statement is still 100% NOT true. It's false. UCG does not teach or suggest what you say. Even IF they did, which they don't, it's not what I believe.
What you did was to string together somethings and then make an assertion. Assertions are not truth.
On another thread you posted very similar stuff, but then you issued crickets when asked more penetrating questions designed to ferret out the meaning of what you were saying. Care to answer them now?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3107566/posts?page=343#343
To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; DouglasKC
To: Kevmo
I would say the scripture clearly teaches that Jesus is and was God himself. ....
221 posted on Thu 02 Jan 2014 06:21:01 PM PST by DouglasKC
Douglas clearly says that Jesus is God Himself and that Jesus was God Himself.
When GPH says
To be more accurate, Douglas DOES believe Jesus is a god...
***I just need to be sure that we’re not putting words in DKC’s mouth. Douglas said that Jesus is God Himself. Such words would qualify as a heresy in your average anti-trinitarian cult, so let’s hear from DouglasKc before I condemn him the way Christ condemns false teachers as ‘sons of satan’.
So, DouglasKC... is Jesus God (Jehovah) Himself?
323 posted on Thu 02 Jan 2014 07:38:53 PM PST by Kevmo (”A person’s a person, no matter how small” ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 316 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
To: Kevmo; DouglasKC; All
“So, DouglasKC... is Jesus God (Jehovah) Himself?”
Again, be careful with this, because he will answer “yes,” but he won’t mean what we mean. He does not mean “Yes, Jesus is the second member of the Trinity,” he means “Jesus is one of many potential God entities, who are ‘one’ God by being in a covenant with each other, but not because they are a Trinity.”
The question isn’t a matter of “Do you believe Jesus is God?” It’s a matter of “Do you believe that you will become a God by joining the God Family?”
334 posted on Thu 02 Jan 2014 07:45:40 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans
He does not mean “Yes, Jesus is the second member of the Trinity,”
***Douglas, do you mean “Yes, Jesus is the second member of the Trinity”?
he means “Jesus is one of many potential God entities, who are ‘one’ God by being in a covenant with each other, but not because they are a Trinity.”
***Douglas, is this what you mean?
The question isn’t a matter of “Do you believe Jesus is God?” It’s a matter of “Do you believe that you will become a God by joining the God Family?”
***Is that how you see it, DouglasKC? It would sure seem that your earlier responses are aimed at spiritual misdirection from your primary purpose of promoting an antitrinitarian viewpoint. Such a viewpoint is properly labelled as a heresy and condemned by Jesus as coming from ‘sons of satan’. I do not envy you if you’re promoting such a heres, but in the same breath it would appear that YOU are a Ravenous Wolf on Free Republic. So... let’s hear it...
Before he died Jesus asked his father to forgive them etc. Was Jesus praying to himself? This makes no sense.
On another thread you posted very similar stuff, but then you issued crickets when asked more penetrating questions designed to ferret out the meaning of what you were saying. Care to answer them now? [Editing to remove any antagonism]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3107566/posts?page=343#343
To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; DouglasKC
To: Kevmo
I would say the scripture clearly teaches that Jesus is and was God himself. ....
221 posted on Thu 02 Jan 2014 06:21:01 PM PST by DouglasKC
Douglas clearly says that Jesus is God Himself and that Jesus was God Himself.
When GPH says
To be more accurate, Douglas DOES believe Jesus is a god...
***I just need to be sure that we’re not putting words in DKC’s mouth. ....
To: Kevmo; DouglasKC; All
“So, DouglasKC... is Jesus God (Jehovah) Himself?”
Again, be careful with this, because he will answer “yes,” but he won’t mean what we mean. He does not mean “Yes, Jesus is the second member of the Trinity,” he means “Jesus is one of many potential God entities, who are ‘one’ God by being in a covenant with each other, but not because they are a Trinity.”
The question isn’t a matter of “Do you believe Jesus is God?” It’s a matter of “Do you believe that you will become a God by joining the God Family?”
334 posted on Thu 02 Jan 2014 07:45:40 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans
He does not mean “Yes, Jesus is the second member of the Trinity,”
***Douglas, do you mean “Yes, Jesus is the second member of the Trinity”?
he means “Jesus is one of many potential God entities, who are ‘one’ God by being in a covenant with each other, but not because they are a Trinity.”
***Douglas, is this what you mean?
The question isn’t a matter of “Do you believe Jesus is God?” It’s a matter of “Do you believe that you will become a God by joining the God Family?”
***Is that how you see it, DouglasKC?
Was Jesus Polite to False Teachers?
Matthew 23
Code: BQ62411
Many Christians today are greatly concerned about the rising influences of communism, humanism, secularism, and social injustice. Yet those evils, great as they are, do not together pose the threat to Christianity that false shepherds and pastors do. Throughout the history of redemption, the greatest threat to God’s truth and God’s work has been false prophets and teachers, because they propose to speak in His name. That is why the Lord’s most scathing denunciations were reserved for the false teachers of Israel, who claimed to speak and act for God but were liars.
Yet for some reason, evangelical Christianity is often hesitant to confront false teachers with the seriousness and severity that Jesus and the apostles did, and that the godly prophets before them had done. Today, more than at any time in modern history and perhaps more than at any time in the history of the church, pagan religions and cults are seriously encroaching on societies that for centuries have been nominally Christian. Even within the church, many ideas, teachings, and philosophies that are little more than thinly veiled paganism have become popular and influential. As in ancient Israel, the further God’s people move away from the foundation of His Word, the more false religion flourishes in the world and even in their own midst. At no time have Christians had greater need to be discerning. They need to recognize and respect true godly shepherds who feed them God’s Word and build them up in the faith, and they also must recognize and denounce those who twist and undermine God’s Word, who corrupt the church and who lead lost people still further away from God’s truth and from salvation.
In Matthew 23:13–33 Jesus relentlessly condemned the false spiritual leaders of Israel, in particular the scribes and Pharisees, who then held the dominant power and influence in Judaism. Jesus warned about them in His first sermon, the Sermon on the Mount (see, e.g., 5:20; 7:15), and His last sermon (Matt. 23) consists almost entirely of warnings about them and to them. In this final public message, the Lord wanted to draw the people away from those false leaders and turn them to the true teaching and the godly examples of His apostles, who would become His uniquely commissioned and endowed representatives on earth during the early years of the church. He also gave the apostles themselves a final example of the confrontational stance they would soon find it necessary to take in their proclamation and defense of the gospel.
The unbelieving scribes and Pharisees whom Jesus addressed in the Temple stood alone in their sin and were condemned alone in their guilt for misappropriating and perverting God’s law and for leading Israel into heresy, just as the false prophets among their forefathers had done (vv. 30–32). But they also stood as models of all false spiritual leaders who would come after them. Therefore what Jesus said about them and to them is of much more than historical significance. It is essential instruction for dealing with the false leaders who abound in our own day.
In the first twelve verses of chapter 23, Jesus had declared that the scribes and Pharisees, typical of all false spiritual leaders, were without authority, without integrity, without sympathy, without spirituality, without humility, and therefore without God’s approval or blessing. Now speaking to them directly, He asserts they are under God’s harshest condemnation. In verses 13–33 Jesus pronounces seven curses, or woes, on those wicked leaders.
The scene in the Temple that day had become volatile in the extreme, in some ways more volatile than when Jesus had cast out the merchants and money-changers the day before. At that time Jesus’ anger was vented against what the religious leaders were doing outwardly, and that attack had outraged them (21:16, 23). Now, however, He attacked what they were inwardly, and that infuriated them even more.
In our day of tolerance and eclecticism, the kind of confrontation Jesus had with the scribes and Pharisees seems foreign and uncharitable. A person who speaks too harshly against a false religion or unbiblical teaching or movement is considered unkind, ungracious, and judgmental. Jesus’ indictments in Matthew 23, as well as in other parts of the gospels, are so inconsistent with the idea of Christian love held by some liberal theologians and Bible scholars, for example, that they conclude He could not have spoken them. What Jesus really said, they maintain, was modified and intensified either by the gospel writers or the sources from whom they received their information.
But the nature of Jesus’ condemnation of those corrupt religious leaders is perfectly consistent with the rest of Scripture, both the Old Testament and the New. Not only that, but Jesus’ words in this passage fly from His lips, as someone has said, like claps of thunder and spears of lightning. Out of His mouth on this occasion came the most fearful and dreadful statements that Jesus uttered on earth. They do not give the least impression of being the afterthought of an overzealous writer or copyist.
Matthew 23 is one of the most serious passages in Scripture. Jesus here makes the word hypocrite a synonym for scribe and for Pharisee. He calls them sons of hell, blind guides, fools, robbers, self-indulgent, whitewashed tombs, full of hypocrisy and lawlessness, serpents, vipers, and persecutors and murderers of God’s people. He uttered every syllable with absolute self-control but with devastating intensity.
Yet Jesus was never cold or indifferent, even toward His enemies, and on this occasion His judgment is mingled with sorrow and deep pathos. It is not the Son’s will any more than the Father’s that a single person perish, because it is the gracious divine desire that everyone would come to repentance and salvation (2 Pet. 3:9). At the end of His denunciation, Jesus extended by implication another last invitation for belief, suggesting that He would still gladly gather any unbelievers under His wings as a mother hen gathers her chicks, if only they would be willing (Matt. 23:37).
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GPH: If you’re filled up to all the fullness of God and your family’s last name is now God, in other words you are named a part of God’s family, well that can only mean that you can become a literal son or daughter of God, a full fledged member of His family, a divine spirit being like God in His eternal family.
DKC:
these are fairly accurate summaries of what I think scripture teaches.
***Do you acknowledge that such teaching is considered heretical to mainstream christianity? If the vast majority of Christendom (both catholic and protestant) hold this to be heretical, wouldn’t the scriptural burden of proof be placed upon you and the UCG to prove your viewpoint is superior and the “real” orthodox viewpoint?
2 Peter 2:1-3 1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies,
Heb 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
These are STILL foundational beliefs of many Christians, including Catholicism.
***The scripture you quoted yourself refutes your own claim. It is obviously “leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go onto ...”
basically all those other things are not “elementary principles of Christ”.
GPH: The UCG on the Holy Spirit:
“...The Holy Spirit is spoken of in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a divine person.”
http://www.ucg.org/booklet/god-trinity/holy-spirit-person/
DKC: Well okay, again as far as it goes, minus the snark and the contempt, it’s an okay summary. But again quoting out of context, adding your context, and not quoting all the scriptural proofs doesn’t accurately reflect my beliefs.
***Then maybe you should insert what exactly does “accurately reflect your beliefs” because by claiming the Holy Spirit is not a divine person, that church is engaging in anti-trinitarian heresy.
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