Protestants & Contraception

Answering Protestants ^ | 3 January 2014 | Matthew Olson

[matthewrobertolson]

Protestants opposed contraception until the 1930 Lambeth Conference. After this, positions changed. So, did the Bible change, or did they?

[verga]

I will continue to pray that Jesus comes into your heart.

[verga]

And that’s how you respond to charity...

a left handed compliment is not charity, but then again you are not a Christian.

[imardmd1]

Talking of 1930, don't forget the abject poverty brought on by the politics of the Great Depression, and the heartbreak of trying to feed large, or maybe any, families, that might have changed attitudes that heretofore were intransigent.

[redleghunter]

I have met many Catholics and many other denominations of Christians and yet to know of any who support selective abortions. I know that is subjective proof but I am in the Army and have conversed with many chaplains and fellow soldiers from several denominations and have yet to meet a Christian who supports selective abortions. I certainly do not in any case.

I don’t know your interaction with Pro Life evangelicals however you should look at an organization called the Manhattan Declaration (I am a member and supporter) which was formed by Evangelicals and Roman Catholics. The organization was the idea of the late Chuck Colson of prison ministries.

The group supports pro life issues and traditional marriage:

http://manhattandeclaration.org/#0

Perhaps on such a site as FR we could mirror such an effort instead of posting about groups clearly in opposition to what we believe.

[narses]

In the Religion forum, on a thread titled Protestants & Contraception, redleghunter wrote:
I have met many Catholics and many other denominations of Christians and yet to know of any who support selective abortions. I know that is subjective proof but I am in the Army and have conversed with many chaplains and fellow soldiers from several denominations and have yet to meet a Christian who supports selective abortions. I certainly do not in any case.

I don’t know your interaction with Pro Life evangelicals however you should look at an organization called the Manhattan Declaration (I am a member and supporter) which was formed by Evangelicals and Roman Catholics. The organization was the idea of the late Chuck Colson of prison ministries.

The group supports pro life issues and traditional marriage:

http://manhattandeclaration.org/#0

Perhaps on such a site as FR we could mirror such an effort instead of posting about groups clearly in opposition to what we believe.

[redleghunter]

On the excuse comment, I am not making any. I pointed out that what one religious organization may state and preach and what her congregants do, their actions, don’t always match. So in the case of red state Bible thumpers they deliver pro life representation at state and federal level, where blue state bastions of Catholicism deliver representation which progresses the culture of death and sodomite “marriage.”

Those are hard facts regardless of a convention letter or canon law. Jesus Christ gave this parable which is relevant to the discussion:

Matthew 21:28-31 NASB

“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

So I ask which group is doing the will of God in opposing abortion? The group with written documents saying it is wrong in all cases but votes for democrats; or the group who votes for pro life candidates who ignored the fallible and false position of their convention?

[redleghunter]

Thanks.

[redleghunter]

I will have to dig for it but I opined earlier on the economy of God vs. that of fallen mankind. Youth today have a most difficult world to live in.

[narses]

My pleasure. Working together beats working alone.

[Rashputin]

Governor Moonbeam himself couldn't have written a better short defense of the doctrine that flows from the lame sociological distortion of Christianity that amounts to reading Genesis as if it says, "Then Adam said to Eve, let us make God in our own image".

[imardmd1]

I thought we were done, but . . .

Concurrently on FR:

Dolan confers Seton Award to Pro-abortion Girl Scout CEO

Now we are done . . .

[Rashputin]

Dolan may well go all the way and be marrying that witch to her significant other next month.

Although I don't think it's the worldwide Great Apostasy just yet, we're well into at least the Great American Apostasy following in the footsteps of the rest of the Western World.

That happens in cultures that believe they're destined to be the Top Dog forever. Things get easy and people stop using their moral muscles because it's so much easier to allow their glands to generate excuses.

[boatbums]

How about you stop making the thread about me and talk about the topic?

[boatbums]

Great point!

[boatbums]

As usual, all bark, no bytes. ;o)

[Rashputin]

Riiight. A fitting defense of "yada, yada, yada, "I well know everything", yada,yada".

You're right, I responded to no bytes, just typical Self bits.

Bur then, someone had to point out the sheer absurdity of a comment defending the redefining of what God Almighty expects to suit social changes among mere mortal heretics in pursuit of convenience and glandular joy. More "Christian Liberty" at work.

[boatbums]

Riiight. A fitting defense of "yada, yada, yada, "I well know everything", yada,yada". You're right, I responded to no bytes, just typical Self bits. Bur then, someone had to point out the sheer absurdity of a comment defending the redefining of what God Almighty expects to suit social changes among mere mortal heretics in pursuit of convenience and glandular joy. More "Christian Liberty" at work.

I merely described what the conditions were at that time and gave an opinion about why certain things happened the way they did. Perhaps you skipped over the parts where I said I didn't condone what did result and the ways society changed because of it? Why do you accuse me of defending it? Why not save some of that vinegar for your fellow Catholics who really ARE expecting God to suit their social changes? You know, people like Catholics for Choice for example?

Rather than thinking up all the creative ways to condemn me for the audacity of speaking my OWN opinions about the contraception issue and the bogus assertion that the Roman Catholic Church is right about this so they MUST be right about everything else, why not just speak your opinion about it and stop waxing personal for a change???

You've been ragging on me across threads for months now because I said exactly what I have said here. If you don't believe Christian married couples should have liberty on how they go about planning for their families, then say so. Don't take out your frustrations on me because I dare talk back to you. It's not proven to be the most pleasant thing in the world, but I can handle it.

[matthewrobertolson]

Catholics have NO Apostolic tradition they can point to that proves them right on their prohibition of ALL methods of contraception.

You're wrong.

The Church Fathers on Contraception

Here are some quotes:

Letter of Barnabas
"Moreover, he [Moses] has rightly detested the weasel [Lev. 11 :29]. For he means, 'Thou shalt not be like to those whom we hear of as committing wickedness with the mouth with the body through uncleanness [orally consummated sex]; nor shalt thou be joined to those impure women who commit iniquity with the mouth with the body through uncleanness"' (Letter of Barnabas 10:8 [A.D. 74]).

Clement of Alexandria
"Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

Clement of Alexandria
"To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature" (ibid. 2:10:95:3).

Hippolytus
"[Christian women with male concubines], on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, they use drugs of sterility [oral contraceptives] or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered [abortion]" (Refutation of All Heresies 9:12 [A.D. 225]).

[boatbums]

Catholics have NO Apostolic tradition they can point to that proves them right on their prohibition of ALL methods of contraception. You're wrong.

You quote the church "fathers" instead of the Apostles (AKA Apostolic traditions) which I asked for and you quote snippets where these fathers condemn sex with prostitutes - which the Apostles DID say was wrong, anyway - and one where the guy was under the mistaken early thinking that the "seed" (semen) contained a miniature human baby (they thought man "planted" his seed in the woman and the baby grew from it). You also quote a guy who thinks ANY sex between a husband and wife when it is not specifically for conceiving a child is wrong - something even Catholicism has backed away from. So, I ask again, show me where the Apostles spoke against all contraception. What some of the Catholic-approved fathers thought at the time doesn't count as Divinely inspired.

[verga]

I will continue to pray that Jesus comes into your heart.