"Jesus did not say, “My flesh is of no avail.”
He said, “The flesh is of no avail.” "
Posted on 12/12/2013 7:50:01 AM PST by GonzoII
"Jesus did not say, “My flesh is of no avail.”
He said, “The flesh is of no avail.” "
Amen
Perfect example of biblical eisegesis ...
John is the only gospel that doesnt mention the Lords Table during the passover. If John 6 is meant to foreshadow the "real presence," then his omission in the upper room discourse is not answerable with a cogent explanation. It will always be "John didnt have to mention it because the other 3 did ..."
for later
On the surface of things, why would one want to argue against the bodily presence of Christ is His Supper? Of what benefit is it to participate in Christ only by way of Platonic notions? No wonder it has been the practice of the Church to catechize and commune only those who take Christ at His Word, and do not turn away when the sayings are hard.
The Bread of Life Discourse.
22* The next day, the crowd that remained across the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not gone along with his disciples in the boat, but only his disciples had left. 23* Other boats came from Tiberias near the place where they had eaten the bread when the Lord gave thanks. 24When the crowd saw that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they themselves got into boats and came to Capernaum looking for Jesus. 25And when they found him across the sea they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?” 26Jesus answered them and said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled. 27Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life,* which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.”l 28So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.” 30So they said to him, “What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do?m 31* Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written:n
‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
32So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.o 33For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34p So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35* Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.q 36But I told you that although you have seen [me], you do not believe.r 37Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, 38because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.s 39And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it [on] the last day.t 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him [on] the last day.”u
41The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,” 42and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”v 43Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop murmuring* among yourselves.w 44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. 45It is written in the prophets:
‘They shall all be taught by God.’
Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.x 46Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.y 47Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;z 50this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”a
52The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?” 53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” 59These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
The Words of Eternal Life.*
60Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” 61Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? 62What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?* 63It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh* is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.c 65And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
66As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. 67Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” 68Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”d 70Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?” 71He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.
Please notice
John 6:
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
Jesus spoke and taught in parables and metaphors. He didn’t mean to actually EAT His flesh or drink His blood. He didn’t mean to eat a wafer, cracker, or drink grape juice or wine. Maybe you should ask the Holy Spirit to explain it to you. It’s about wholeheartedly, completely, believing in HIM. It’s totally accepting Him, making Him your one and only God. Taking in His teachings and commandments and living a righteous life that makes Him proud.
If you want to eat wafers and drink wine as a “symbol” of those things mentioned above, then I wouldn’t be a stumbling block to you.
Romans 14:
4 “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.”
But, Jesus IS the “Truth”.
John 8:
“..... Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
To claim that the wafer actually IS Jesus’ body and the wine actually IS Jesus’ blood, seems to totally miss the point. Eating a wafer gives you what, Jesus vitamins? “You are what you eat”, is that it? No, it’s taking in His love and teachings. It’s living FOR Him. You have “free will”. He wants you to CHOOSE to do what is good, not to “choose” to eat a wafer.
Before you attack me, Don’t waste your time. I don’t read responses. I stand by what I said, let God be my judge.
Can you give a cogent answer as to why, if John 6 refers to the eucharist, he doesnt mention it where it has the most meaning ... namely, the upper room discourse?
It is ... I just don't read it through the lens of Romanist doctrine.
The hubris to think that a created human by magic can
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
turn a Pesach Matzoh into the Creator of the universe.
Christ dwells in our hearts through faith.
We don’t need to eat Him.
The flesh profits nothing. The words Jesus spoke are SPIRIT and truth.
You can ask exactly why the opposite is not argued. Why would a Romanist argue FOR the bodily presence?
I think the answer is simple ... Roman doctrine REQUIRES it ... since there is no life in anyone who does not partake of it ... of necessity partaking of the eucharist is NECESSARY for salvation.
So where are all the people who are 2,000 years old who never died because they ate the eucharist?
For that matter, why are there Catholics dying by the day when they eat the eucharist?
After all, Jesus did say that those who eat Him will never die.
What’s with this death thing going around among Catholics then?
You keep using the term “Romanist” as a pejorative.
Perhaps you do not know that the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Churches all agree with the Real Presence?
I understand that John Calvin defended it as well. Perhaps just another guy following Romanist doctrine?
eternally die. Please think about this.
are you not familiar with the Gospel of the souls arising from their graves at the Crucifixion of Christ — visible only to the believers? These were the souls who had been waiting for Christ to be the first person into heaven.
What happened to your catechesis?
Are you not aware that there are many rites of the Catholic Church? Please check out the chart in this link -- for we are all Catholics -- not Romanists. LOL!
The sacred Scriptures say it plainly enough, so that one is more surprised to find it spoken against, except that the world is not inclined to receive Him Who created all things.
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