Posted on 12/10/2013 8:16:59 AM PST by GonzoII
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The first commandment says: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them” (Ex. 20:2–5). Well-meaning Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, armed with the above text, often try to use it against Catholics: “How can God make it any clearer than this? We are not to have ‘graven images,’ or statues, yet what do you see in almost every Catholic Church around the world? Statues! This is the definition of idolatry. And please, do not give me any of this nonsense about equating the statues in your churches to carrying a photograph of a loved one in your wallet. In Exodus 20, as well as in Deuteronomy 5:7–8, God specifically says we are not to make statues in the shape of anything in the sky above, the earth below or the waters beneath the earth.” How are we to respond? Clarifications The Catholic Church does not believe any statue or image has any power in and of itself. The beauty of statues and icons move us to the contemplation of the Word of God as he is himself or as he works in his saints. And, according to Scripture, as well as the testimony of the centuries, God even uses them at times to impart blessings (e.g., healings) according to his providential plan. While it can certainly be understood how a superficial reading of the first commandment could lead one to believe we Catholics are in grave error with regard to our use of statues and icons, the key to a proper understanding of the first commandment is found at the very end of that same commandment, in verse 5 of Exodus 20: “You shall not bow down to them or serve [adore] them.” The Lord did not prohibit statues; he prohibited the adoration of them. If God truly meant that we were not to possess any statues at all, then he would later contradict himself. Just five chapters after this commandment in Exodus 20, God commanded Moses to build the ark of the Covenant, which would contain the presence of God and was to be venerated as the holiest place in all of Israel. Here is what God commanded Moses concerning the statues on it: And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends (Ex. 25:18–19). In Numbers 21:8–9, not only did our Lord order Moses to make another statue in the form of a bronze serpent, he commanded the children of Israel to look to it in order to be healed. The context of the passage is one where Israel had rebelled against God, and a plague of deadly snakes was sent as a just punishment. This statue of a snake had no power of itself—we know from John 3:14 it was merely a type of Christ—but God used this image of a snake as an instrument to effect healing in his people. Further, in 1 Kings 6, Solomon built a temple for the glory of God, described as follows: In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house. . . . He carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees, and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms. . . . For the entrance to the inner sanctuary he made doors of olivewood. . . . He covered the two doors of olivewood with carvings of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers; he overlaid them with gold (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27, 29, 31, 32). King Solomon ordered the construction of multiple images of things both “in heaven above” (angels) and “in the earth beneath” (palm trees and open flowers). After the completion of the temple, God declared he was pleased with its construction (1 Kgs. 9:3). It becomes apparent, given the above evidence, that a strictly literal interpretation of Exodus 20:2–5 is erroneous. Otherwise, we would have to conclude that God prohibits something in Exodus 20 that he commands elsewhere. Guiding Us Home Why would God use these images of serpents, angels, palm trees, and open flowers? Why didn’t he heal the people directly rather than use a “graven image”? Why didn’t he command Moses and Solomon to build an ark and a temple void of any images at all? First, God knows what his own commandments mean. He never condemned the use of statues absolutely. Second, God created man as a being who is essentially spiritual and physical. In order to draw us to himself, God uses both spiritual and physical means. He will use statues, the temple, or even creation itself to guide us to our heavenly home. Psalm 19:1 tells us: “The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork.” Romans 1:20 says: “Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.” Gazing at a sunset—or a great painting of a sunset—and contemplating the greatness of God through the beauty of his creation is not idolatry. Nor is it idolatrous to look at statues of great saints of old and honor them for the great things God has done through them. It is no more idolatrous for us to desire to imitate their holy lives and honor them than it was for Paul to exhort the Corinthians to imitate his own holy life (1 Cor. 4:16) and to “esteem very highly” those who were “over [the Thessalonians] in the Lord and admonish [them]” (1 Thess. 5:12–13). Jesus Is the Reason It is Jesus Christ himself who gives us the ultimate example of the value of statues and icons. Indeed, Christ, in his humanity, has opened up an entirely new economy of iconography and statuary. Christ becomes for us the ultimate reason for all representations of the angels and saints. Why do we say this? Colossians 1:15 tells us Christ is, “The image (Gr.-icon) of the invisible God.” Christ is the ultimate icon! And what does this icon reveal to us? He reveals God the Father. When Jesus said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father,” in John 14:9, he does not mean that he is the Father. He isn’t. He’s the Son. Hebrews 1:3 tells us Christ “reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature.” That is the essence of what statues and icons are. Just as “the word became flesh” (John 1:14) and revealed the Father to us in a manner beyond the imaginings of men before the advent of Christ, representations of God’s holy angels and saints are also icons of Christ who by their heroic virtue “reflect the glory of God” as well. Just as St. Paul told the Corinthians to hold up his own life as a paradigm when he said, “I urge you, then, be imitators of me,” the Church continues to hold up great men and women of faith as “icons” of the life of Christ lived in fallen human nature aided by grace. Adoration is as Adoration Does Many Protestants will claim that, while the Catholic may say he does not adore statues, his actions prove otherwise. Catholics kiss statues, bow down before them, and pray in front of them. According to these same Protestants, that represents the adoration that is due God alone. Peter, when Cornelius bowed down to adore him, ordered him to “stand up; I too am a man” (Acts 10:26). When John bowed down before an angel, the angel told him, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you” (Rev. 19:10). But Catholics have no problem bowing down before what is less—a statue of Peter or John! Is kissing or kneeling down before a statue the same as adoring it? Not necessarily. Both Peter in Acts 10 and the angel in Revelation 19 rebuked Cornelius and John, respectively, specifically for adoring them as if each was adoring the Lord. The problem was not with the bowing; it was with the adoration. Bowing does not necessarily entail adoration. For example, Jacob bowed to the ground on his knees seven times to his elder brother Esau (Gen. 33:3), Bathsheba bowed to her husband David (1 Kgs. 1:16), and Solomon bowed to his mother Bathsheba (1 Kgs. 2:19). In fact, in Revelation 3:9, John records the words of Jesus: Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and learn that I have loved you. Here, John uses the same verb for “bow down” (proskuneo) that he used in Revelation 19:10 for “adoration” when he acknowledged his own error in adoring the angel. Would anyone dare say that Jesus would make someone commit idolatry? St. Paul encourages Christians to greet one another with a holy kiss (Rom. 16:16; 1 Cor. 16:20; 2 Cor. 13:12; 1 Thess. 5:26). The clergy in Ephesus embraced and kissed Paul after his final discourse to them in Acts 20:37. As the context of these passages make clear, these are acts of affection, not adoration. Catholics take very seriously the biblical injunctions to praise and honor great members of God’s family (see, for example, Ps. 45:17; Luke 1:48; 1 Thess. 5:12–13; 1 Tim. 5:17; 1 Pet. 5:5–6). We also believe, as Scripture makes very clear, that death does not separate us from the love of Christ (Rom. 8:38) and from his body, which is the Church (Col. 1:24). Our “elders in heaven” (cf. Rev. 5:8) should be honored as much or even more than our greatest members on earth. So having statues honoring God or great saints brings to mind the God we adore and the saints we love and respect. For Catholics, having statues is just as natural as—you guessed it—having pictures in our wallets to remind us of the ones we love here on earth. But reminding ourselves of loved ones is a far cry from idolatry. |
Placing something at a higher level of precedence isn’t worship. Otherwise, we could say Catholics worship tradition, but that wouldn’t be sensible either, now would it?
Do you mean bones? 2 Kgs 13:210-21
Or Angels? Ex 25:18-19
Or face cloths? Acts 19:11-12
Why not pieces of the Cross?
2 Kgs 13:210-21 = 2 Kgs 13:20-21
Saints who are ‘alive and here on earth’...yes of course we have that fellowship with believers.... which is what the communion of Saints is about...certainly not with those who are no longer here...to do so goes against the scriptures clearly stating we are not to commune with those who have passed on....though one day we will surely be with them and enjoy them at that time.
I confess Christ Jesus....an individual does not have to recite a creed to acknowledge what their relationship is with Jesus.....my “belief” is based not on creeds but on Christ...what Jesus has done and is doing now, and will be in the future.
But why would you even question creeds? Is it not enough Christ within you the hope of Glory? IS He not sufficient for you as He says that He is?
I think not.
Exodus 25:18-19 Make two cherubim of gold; make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 Make one cherub at one end and one cherub at the other end. At its two ends, make the cherubim of one piece with the mercy seat.
Nothin’ there about worship.
2 Kings 13: 20 Then Elisha died and was buried. Now Moabite raiders used to come into the land in the spring of the year. 21 Once, as the Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a raiding party, so they threw the man into Elisha’s tomb. When he touched Elisha’s bones, the man revived and stood up!
Nothing there about worship. (And if you find Elisha's bones let me know. There is certainly nothing there normative about the Christian life.)
Acts 19:11-12
Demonism Defeated at Ephesus
11 God was performing extraordinary miracles by Paul’s hands, 12 so that even facecloths or work aprons[a] that had touched his skin were brought to the sick, and the diseases left them, and the evil spirits came out of them.
Have any thing touched by Paul? I thought not.
All quaint Roman Catholic superstition bordering on damnable heresy.
“thou shalt not bow down to them nor serve them” was part of that command. It didn’t say “bow down AND serve them” in the Greek it says NOR. You are neither to bow down to them nor are you to serve them.
NOR are we under the Old Testament covenant.
You might want to check out what they did to that thing after the Israelites started to “venerate” it.
So we have a basis for common understanding... which is the purpose of a creed. Just like the Bible, it isn't all-encompassing. It is a statement of basic faith. If we have that basic faith, we have a basic understanding for building the conversation.
Is it not enough Christ within you the hope of Glory? IS He not sufficient for you as He says that He is?
Of course Christ is enough. The question is... how well do you serve Him? It isn't enough to say you believe--even the demons of Hell believe; they tremble in fear. If you believe, you will DO what He commands which is His Father's Will. In the end, we won't be judged based on our words and beliefs, many will be locked out, crying, "Lord, Lord!" We will be judged on what we have done.
It truly does go to the heart of the whole matter.
Worship? No. Veneration? Perhaps.
Simple question: Did Jesus have to die on the Cross? I ask this simply because people seem to go so far in discounting the physical, fleshy part of living that I think they forget we were sanctified through a real, physical, fleshy sacrifice. No blood, no covenant.
Yes.
My point is that I’ve seen plenty of statues as the subject of adoration in Catholic churches. I doubt that the actual saint or whoever in question gives a rip about candles, flowers, or jewelry being left around a statue.
So you never ask people to pray for so and so? Or say, “I’ll say a prayer for you.” Or “I’ll keep you in my prayers”? Weird, but I think you are in the minority. We are all intercessors aren
t we? So why wouldn’t Mary and Joseph or the saints?
Though I do believe there are Catholics within their church who are true believers, and who understand our Salvation rests firmly on the Centrality of Jesus Christ, what He has done and will do. And likewise there are those within the Protestant Churches etc.....and it is these believers throughout all churches who are ‘The Church’ the Body of Christ made up of all who believe, who have understood and accepted His Sacrifice for them personally and the forgiveness He offers.
How they serve Him after their conversion is certainly varied among individuals as to what He calls them to and when.
I am reminded of one man who other Christians questioned some of the speech and behavior of this man...and for that if He was a true believer or not. It was put to rest when another spoke up and stated.....”You should have seen and known him before He became a Christian.”
As Christians we will be ‘rewarded’ for what we have done ‘through Jesus’....the Glory goes to Him fully... for in us dwells no good thing. (Apart from Him it's impossible to be otherwise.).... The ‘punishment’ we should have received for our failures and sins has been paid in full by Jesus, once and for all.....or else it pays for nothing at all....
Our Judgment will be one of loss of reward.....not punishment as believers. Unbelievers will however face the ultimate Judgment.......they may have “acted and done service to their church” but they never “believed” in His finished work ‘for them at a personal level’. Rather they practiced Christianity only. And all churches have such ones among them.
Of course we have asked other Christians to pray ‘with’ us.......they are here among us and the body of believers here on earth.
But no...I couldn’t begin to even desire to pray to anyone who has passed on .... when in fact I have Jesus within me and attentive of and to my life ad those I care of and care to pray for 24/7...and He alone has the authority to act on my and their behalf.
Nor do I care to offend the Lord by communing with those who have passed on......any who do so have no way to prove they are “connecting” with these people who have passed on and that they are not being deceived by the enemy of mens souls loves to imitate the departed and does so.
Even those in third worlds claim to contact the spirits and persons of their departed...why would a Christian “mingle” with such things we are told not to do.
Again there is no way you can tell who you are speaking with outside of the imagination of your own heart and mind....and we are not to depend or rely on such. Further this goes against Jesus’s clear warnings not to commune with the departed.
I never said the Bible was a how to on all matters. What I said was if a tradition or practice CONTRADICTS the Bible, the tradition or practice should not stand.
And what do you decide is an idol? What makes an idol an idol?
If you are to decide what is idolatry for yourself or other, this would be necessary. Do you know?
They are only supposed to be for inspiration, they are not like the march of the wooden soldiers.
Granted, some of the peasants do go to church with life size statues and can go too far with the concept.
If I thought they did, I wouldn’t be joining.
Do they bow or kneel before them? Kiss their cold dead hands or feet?
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