Posted on 11/25/2013 9:03:35 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
The Apostle Paul said to not become drunk on wine, but to be filled with the Spirit. Obviously, there is a point at which one can imbibe a certain amount of alcohol, be it from fermented grapes, fermenting honey, or whatever - and become drunk.
I imagine that some people, somewhere, can drink one beer for the first time and become drunk - a rarity indeed - but nonetheless not outside the realm of possiblity. And so, by drinking that first beer, they become drunk --- and sin. Others may say that it takes x amount (be it from wine, beer, hard liquor, etc) to become drunk (i.e. a 6 pack). Others may say that it takes x amount of the aforementioned times 1.5 (9 beers). Others may say 2 times x - a 12 pack...
Is it different for each person? .
Can some people say "I wasn't drunk, I was just slightly tipsy, or somewhat tipsy, and thus was not drunk and therefore do not need to repent of the sin of drunkenness." Who is to say? Do they alone know the truth?
The best thing to do is avoid alcohol altogether.
Now some may say that if this road is trod that it could lead to a host of "maybe I shouldn't do this or that" and thus it becomes a question of necessity.
Is clothing necessary? Yes. Is food necessary? Yes. And on and on... And so, some things in life aren't necessary. Is alcohol necessary?
Can someone become addicted to a host of things? Certainly. Some are probably addicted to social websites - how is that any different from being addicted to cigarettes? Sure, certain addiction may have different levels of consquence, but addictions of any sort aren't pleasing to God.
And, once again, I will add to this - for those who missed it the first two times:
A young man was heard accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. A few years later he went off to Bible college, graduated, and became a youth pastor not long thereafter. Around two years later he fell into sin, deep sin, whatever. Half of the church thought that he was never saved to begin with, and the other half thought that he had merely "fallen out of fellowship" with Christ, but was nonetheless still saved.
So how much bad fruit, or lack of good fruit, does one have to show in order to be classified into the "never saved" to begin with or the merely "out of fellowship with Christ"? X amount of sin? X amount plus one act of drunkenness? X amount of a particular sin, plus one act of drunkenness, plus one time of fornication to put them "over the top" and into the realm of the "never saved"? And how much of a time period must elapse between each sin(s)?
Yes, Paul the Apostle knew that certain of the Thessalonians were saved, and appaerently the Apostle John knew that certain were saved when he wrote to them, but they were writing the scriptures. The Bible says that the scriptures are God breathed, and Paul wrote that the scriptures were written when the Holy Spirit moved upon men.
And thus it wasn't Paul or John who knew who was or wasn't saved, but God alone --- He revealed this to them as they wrote the scriptures. But since there are supposedly no Apostles around anymore, who is there for God to reveal things like this to? And secondly, the canon of scripture is closed.
I believe that we know personally if our hearts are or aren't right with Jesus Christ. I know when God has pricked my heart on several occasions. As to being able to say with absolute certainty whether or not the person sitting next to me or you in the pew is or isn't saved - who is to know?
I believe that the term "out of fellowship with Christ" needs to be chunked.
If a person is in sin, claims to be saved, then someone should follow the scriptures and go to that person and tell them that they need to repent. If they refuse, then take a second person, (an elder of the church). If they refuse to repent, let the local body of believers they belong to decide to tell them that they refuse to repent and are thus disfellowshipped. Sure, they can still come to that church church, but they (as Jesus said) would be treated like a heathen man.
And so, if that youth pastor person ultimately refused to repent... in the end, was he never truly saved to begin with? And if so, how could they he duped the church for so long?
If his departure from the church was his unmasking, who is to say that he will never return and truly repent, thus showing that a declaration of him being never saved to begin with was actually premature, as they later repented, and thus showed that they were saved in the first place, and had not duped the church, but had fallen into sin?
So, once again, how can one ever differentiate here in the here and now, and at this moment b/w those who are or will be known later as the "never saved" and the "fallen out of fellowship with Christ"?
Which one(s) do not ?
ALL scripture is given ..... snip ..... for instruction in righteousness.
Indeed, that’s a good indicator, because the main point is to not take leave of your senses, which you would have to in order for Obama to make sense.
The cool thing about Christianity is that it is a “spirit of the law” rather than “letter of the law” sort of thing.
They didn’t have breathalizer’s back then. I’ll add that you know when you are “drunk” vs slightly feeling it. I figure it is somewhere between the two but towards the latter. It’s also a frame of mind. If you are feeling it, do you down another couple shots of tequila? And, frankly, why are you doing shots in the first place when the only reason for them is getting drunk?
I like to sip bourbon, scotch, tequila and even good vodka. But I limit myself to a shot an hour.
“The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” James 5:16
Do not mix or confuse righteous living with salvation which is the free gift of God.
As far as alcohol is concerned, Jesus turned the water into wine... and yet taught against ANY excess.... not just alcohol.
Gluttony is a sin too... so how fat do you have to be before your salvation is in question?
Righteous living empowers your prayer life.
Addiction is addiction... regardless of how much it takes to get your “fix”.
From personal experience, the third tequila shot.
Wow, seems to me you are conflating a number of issues.
First, the issue of adult beverages.
Second, the issue of once saved, always saved, really EVER saved, etc.
Third, church fellowhip, etc.
On the first, I would say that the “first miracle” more or less does away with any idea that teetotaling is scriptural.
On the second, I mean, it is a heart thing, and who are we to know about others?
On the third, a totally different deal altogether.
When the mother of Jesus said “Son, they have no wine”, at the Cana wedding feast, did He reply,
“Mom, it’s good thing they ran out before there’s too much drunkenness. I wouldn’t contribute to making the situation any worse.”
Instead, Jesus willed His first miracle recorded in Scripture, and when the chief steward tasted the water changed to wine, he called the bridegroom over & criticized his saving the best wine for last when the guests were too inebriated to taste the difference.
At the Last Supper, Jesus took the cup filled with wine and gave thanks........
Kinda difficult to insist that it was all only grape juice.
there are quite a few Christians-
That interpret -that indeed it WAS all Grape juice-
nothing was fermented.
just sayin...
Good and appropriate answer.
POTD! LOL!
When it causes an inability to serve others and oneself according to the will of God.
>>> Good and appropriate answer.
Thanks... now if I could just stop smoking... ;)
Yes - it is obvious from the text that some drinking of “wine” is a given. IMHO, it boils down to the question of where is your heart (what gives you pleasure)?
Imagine dying of thirst in the desert and you find a cool clear well. But then instead of drinking deeply, you grab a nearby spade and dig and scratch in the dirt, trying to suck some life-giving moisture of of the dry dust. This what God calls EVIL:
“...for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water.” Jeremiah 2:13
I thinks C.S. Lewis put it best:
“It would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.” C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory.
(FR needs an ‘edit’ button 8^)
When you stop being a happy drunk.
And they are wrong, and normally among the most pharisaical among us…..
12-18 yo single malt…..in small, slow amounts…..
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