Posted on 11/20/2013 7:14:42 AM PST by Gamecock
If you (rightly) answer "Paul did not mean to say that God had sinned", then why didn't he say that?
If you (rightly) answer "but his readers knew what he meant: he didn't need to list the exceptions" then - aha! We have finally got to the point.
Paul's text is not to be used as a delete *.* command.
Paul's words cannot be taken to mean that Mary had sinned, anymore than they can be taken to mean that Jesus had sinned.
Paul knew the awesome title given to Mary by the Angel Gabriel, just he knew the titanic reality of Jesus Christ, her Son.
His context in the passage is that we all need the Salvation of God. The difference between the rest of mankind and Mary is that she received God's salvation from the moment of her conception.
She needed it. And because of her vital role in God's plan of salvation, she was given it at the moment of her creation.
Hope this was helpful.
I can’t believe your lack logic, Read Romans.
Proof? Links?
His context in the passage is that we all need the Salvation of God. The difference between the rest of mankind and Mary is that she received God's salvation from the moment of her conception.
And I received my salvation about 35 years ago when I was 22. I've sinned since then.
Likewise, I don't doubt that Mary received her salvation at some point, but that doesn't mean she never sinned. Nor is there any indication that she was conceived without sin. It simply isn't and wasn't necessary to fulfill God's plan of redemption. There is nothing in Scripture that alludes to it, nor was there any OT prophecy concerning it.
She needed it. And because of her vital role in God's plan of salvation, she was given it at the moment of her creation.
Why? All Scripture required was that the mother of the Messiah be a virgin and of the house and linage of David.
Grace is undeserved: it is freely given.
Paul establishes here EXACTLY who he is talking about.
Romans 3:9-31 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
OK. then if Mary was graced, she didn’t deserve it.
And the only conditions for not deserving it as because one sinned.
If we deserved it, it wouldn’t be grace.
Well, I thank you for the information, but I respectfully disagree.
The improtant thing is accepting the gift of Salvation from God. All else is detail, IMo
Genesis
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
Who is the offspring who will crush Satan's Head? Christ.
Who then is the woman, who's offspring is Christ? Mary.
In Genesis God states that there will be enmity between Satan and Mary, and between Satan and Christ.
Now that's support for Mary's sinlessness. But the most telling words are spoken by Gabriel, messenger of God at the Annunciation.
He gave Mary the title "Full of Grace". Chaire, Kecharitomene
Full of Grace. No sin at all.
Hope this is helpful.
Indeed, and often parroting dubious or out of context quotes - as if we followed a pope who spoke infallbly.
And or they are criticizing us as having no pope, while dismissing many views of their own pope as simply those of a "private theologian."
While also criticizing us for engaging in private interpretation, which they (as seen recently) have no problem engaging in.
Yet the church began because souls engaged in such, dissenting from those who sat in the seat of Moses.
No it's not. It doesn't say one thing about Mary or her sin or alleged sinlessness.
Where sin abounds, grace does much more abound. No sin = no grace needed.
If Mary was full of grace, she HAD to have sinned. Otherwise grace could not have been given her. It would have been wages due.
FWIW, there's enmity between Satan and EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. He's at odds with all creation.
Ah, but you cannot deserve grace because - as you so rightly said - grace is undeserved. If it was deserved it would be called something like 'payment'.
Mary didn't deserve grace. She received her sinless state as a free gift: a miraculous exception to original sin.
In any case: she couldn't have sinned before being created sinless. For the simple reason that she didn't exist before being created.
Even if grace were given as just deserts - which it is not - Mary could not have been either undeserving nor deserving at a moment that she did not exist.
Hope this was helpful.
In one post you say - rightly - that grace is by its nature a free gift.
In this post you say that grace would have been given as wages due.
Honestly metmom, which is it? Is grace deserved or undeserved?
And lo, real life draws me back into its embrace.
I’d better go. Thanks for the stimulating discussion: perhaps we can pick this up next time.
warm regards.
Yes let’s! The words spoken to her were “Greetings you favored with grace”. That same word is used twice in scripture.
Luke 1:28 does use the word kecharitomene, which literally means "one who has been graced" or “I favor, bestow freely on”.
Acts 6:8 refers to Stephen as plErEs charitos, which literally means "full of grace" and just the same as the description used of Jesus in John 1:14.
So if Catholics insist that Mary was sinless because of the use of kecharitomene they must also believe that Stephen was also sinless since the version of the word charitos along with the word plErEs gives Stephen the same “full of grace” as Jesus but does not give that to Mary. And also here.
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
So it would appear that we as well have that same grace. Now before you go and say something like “she was more highly favored” let’s look at the rest of that verse.
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Blessed among women. Let’s see how that compares to other scripture.
Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,
Jael was called blessed above women. Mary was called blessed among women.
Those words were also spoken of Noah, Moses, and David.
The Scriptures do indeed say God sent a book, but if not God then who sent the Scriptures?
From a biological perspective (which nobody knew at the time), females are born with all the eggs they will ever have in their lives. They are not created at any later time.
Therefore, part of Christ’s genome for his earthly body could not be made from anything but a supernaturally immaculate conception.
See post 94.
I try to avoid the threads on Mary the mother of Jesus Christ. After the first few posts no matter what doctrine is held on her, she is dragged through the mud. I remember growing up in the era of the playground and the "your mama!" jokes and jabs that started fights. I will not brawl like a youth in a playground at recess on mothers. She is Jesus' mother, let her alone. She has the same promise we do of eternal life with Him.
Jesus never commanded us to put Mary on a pedestal and pray to her, nor did He want us to ignore her given Luke 1 has loads on His mom. Why can't we all follow her example and adore, worship and look upon the face of Jesus Christ? It is all about Him and not us.
God Bless!
That is a good point. No one should worship a book, but the God Who breathed it and gave it to us.
Why?
Why did Mary need to be sinless?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.