All those years of living among them, and they still don't know you...
Posted on 11/05/2013 6:07:48 AM PST by Alex Murphy
Boy, did that guy get it wrong!
Ah, you are making my point, thank you
Yes, the individual plotters were in a conspiracy to murder for their own gains, in other words, sinners. Every religion has them. I am sure there were other Catholics who would not have dreamed of getting themselves involved in such a power grab.
All I see is exactly why the Puritans came to America. England is one screwy nation at that point in history and today. The founding Fathers did their best as humanly possible to prevent that “ merry ole England “ activities here. We are better for it. Even when we see things being piecemealed away at times. Interesting article. Thanks.
[Thomas]Cromwell learned his trade well, later employing it for Henry VIII in the general dissolution of the monasteries between 1536 and 1540, destroying in five short years what a thousand years had built. As Henry’s chief minister he embarked upon the destruction of an estimated 1,300 abbeys, priories, nunneries, and hospitals, some 2,374 free chapels and chantries.
Queen Elizabeth, proved herself the former’s daughter by putting to death more people in one year than the Inquisition had done in 331 years!*
Yes, there is more than enough blame to go around. Maybe it is time for respect and dialogue and if need be, the charitable anathema, instead of mockery and half-truths?
*CORRECTION? The figures here come from O’Brien’s booklet (see first post) of the 1950′s. But I received the following information by email:
Henry’s victims were John Fisher and Thomas More, the Carthusian abbots and monks, and a few more Catholics, plus all those (several hundred) executed after the Pilgrimage of Grace. Plus, he had a number of Protestants executed for denying the Six Articles of 1540 approx. But he certainly didn’t kill 72,000.
In England and Wales, we have about 500 martyrs and confessors in total over the period 1534 – 1679. I believe the last Catholic died in prison about 1720.
Elizabeth’s victims may have been about 300, plus those executed after the rising of the Northern Earls of 1569-70. But this is over the whole of her reign, 1558-1603.
If the death toll of the Inquisition is in the range 2000-5000.
Fr Francis Marsden MA PhD STL St Joseph’s Parish Anderton nr Chorley Lancs. It has been some time since I looked at this question. The old Catholic Encyclopedia merely said that numerous Catholics were killed. As I recall, this post was part of a response in 1996 or 1997 to a fundamentalist webpage against Catholicism. O’Brien’s booklet was used from Paulist Press because the material was handy and public domain. I would not know what sources he used for the higher death figures.
Here is what others have added:
A person claimed that one of Thomas More’s own letters makes mention of the death of 4,000 Catholics in the minor port town of Chelsea. However, another critic corrected that in 1528 the population of Chelsea was reported to be 190 adults and children, including 16 households which grew no corn, and Sir Thomas More reported that 100 were fed daily in his household, 49 though not all those would have been living in the parish. In 1548 there were 75 communicants (16 years and over).
The Catholic Truth Society reckoned that 318 men and woman were put to death for the Faith in England between the reigns of Henry VII and Charles II. After being hanged up, they were cut down, ripped up, and their bowels were burned in their faces.”
The entire population of England and Wales at that time was only around 4 million.
The best estimate from Wikipedia is that approximately 70,000 people were executed during the reign of Henry VIII. That is for all offenses, ….
There may perhaps have been 4,000 Catholics killed under Henry VIII, not “judicially” executed, but killed by agents of the Crown, soldiers and the like. There were some Catholic revolts put down by force. Wasn’t one called “the Pilgrimage of Grace”?
Maybe O’Brien means the whole vicious enmity that would bring persecution and deaths for centuries? Remember, Henry VIII got the ball rolling and even had himself declared head of the Church in Ireland. Monasteries were closed and destroyed, monks were imprisoned, dispersed and executed, and lands were confiscated. It was a Protestant England that committed genocide upon a starving Catholic Ireland. The guilt for that blood is on the hands of many, including the one who initiated the break with the true Church.
You should post those as threads, and see what kind of sympathy you can get for them.
In my best Shakespearean Michael Keaton,
“...let the record reflect that you are a horse’s arse...”
All those years of living among them, and they still don't know you...
BD: ...with "the record" reflecting a long history of living "rent free". All those years of living among them, and they still don't know you...
So many mansions, and yet there's nothing in the refrigerators except stale fish! Got any haggis?
When it comes to murder there are no discounts for volume production.
One or a thousand and one? When does the number murdered start to matter?
Go fish?
The catholics lost in England and were persecuted and the huguenots lost in france and were persecuted
This was political as much as religious
The strangest fact was that those during the burning of the Pope were more likely to be heavily secular
Most religious Protestants stay away and England is heavily athiest
i knew most "Protestants" who never went to Church except for a wedding or funeral
The exception were the few Baptists who were very devout, but they didn't turn up for GF as they said it was all about drinking and loud noise (and that it was! hey -- I was in my twenties :)
The historical fact is that GF led a failed rebellion and was and is mocked since
the prejudice against Catholics in the UK is now extended to prejudice against all Christians.
So slurs tossed at each other here is senseless in my opinion -- the majority of English (who are mostly secular) would mock you, Gamecock, for your Christian beliefs just as they would mock a Catholic or a Wesleyan or a Copt.
Interesting . I listen to many years ago a radio ministry in ny. The reverend had a tortured christian pastor from the Iron Curtain on his show. He mention that there were no denomination people. All the Christians in jail with him whether Catholic or Protestant were all know as Christians with the jailers or brethren in jail singing psalms together.
So shall it be soon I think maybe here.
Not only in England but throughout Europe. When living in Germany we heard some comments about our faith from the neighbors.
Western Europe, not Central or Eastern Europe
True.
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