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The "Apocrypha": Why It's Part of the Bible
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism ^ | Friday, November 10, 2006 | Dave Armstrong

Posted on 10/28/2013 12:50:17 PM PDT by GonzoII

(Bible verses: RSV)

The Old Testament in Catholic Bibles contains seven more books than are found in Protestant Bibles (46 and 39, respectively). Protestants call these seven books the Apocrypha and Catholics know them as the deuterocanonical books. These seven books are: Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (or, Sirach), and Baruch. Also, Catholic Bibles contain an additional six chapters (107 verses) in the book of Esther and another three in the book of Daniel (174 verses). These books and chapters were found in Bible manuscripts in Greek only, and were not part of the Hebrew Canon of the Old Testament, as determined by the Jews.

All of these were dogmatically acknowledged as Scripture at the Council of Trent in 1548 (which means that Catholics were henceforth not allowed to question their canonicity), although the tradition of their inclusion was ancient. At the same time, the Council rejected 1 and 2 Esdras and the Prayer of Manasses as part of Sacred Scripture (these are often included in collections of the "Apocrypha" as a separate unit).

The Catholic perspective on this issue is widely misunderstood. Protestants accuse Catholics of "adding" books to the Bible, while Catholics retort that Protestants have "booted out" part of Scripture. Catholics are able to offer very solid and reasonable arguments in defense of the scriptural status of the deuterocanonical books. These can be summarized as follows:

1) They were included in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament from the third century B.C.), which was the "Bible" of the Apostles. They usually quoted the Old Testament scriptures (in the text of the New Testament) from the Septuagint.

2) Almost all of the Church Fathers regarded the Septuagint as the standard form of the Old Testament. The deuterocanonical books were in no way differentiated from the other books in the Septuagint, and were generally regarded as canonical. St. Augustine thought the Septuagint was apostolically-sanctioned and inspired, and this was the consensus in the early Church.

3) Many Church Fathers (such as St. Irenaeus, St. Cyprian, Tertullian) cite these books as Scripture without distinction. Others, mostly from the east (for example, St. Athanasius, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Gregory Nazianzus) recognized some distinction but nevertheless still customarily cited the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. St. Jerome, who translated the Hebrew Bible into Latin (the Vulgate, early fifth century), was an exception to the rule (the Church has never held that individual Fathers are infallible).

4) The Church Councils at Hippo (393) and Carthage (397, 419), influenced heavily by St. Augustine, listed the deuterocanonical books as Scripture, which was simply an endorsement of what had become the general consensus of the Church in the west and most of the east. Thus, the Council of Trent merely reiterated in stronger terms what had already been decided eleven and a half centuries earlier, and which had never been seriously challenged until the onset of Protestantism.

5) Since these Councils also finalized the 66 canonical books which all Christians accept, it is quite arbitrary for Protestants to selectively delete seven books from this authoritative Canon. This is all the more curious when the complicated, controversial history of the New Testament Canon is understood.

6) Pope Innocent I concurred with and sanctioned the canonical ruling of the above Councils (Letter to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse) in 405.

7) The earliest Greek manuscripts of the Old Testament, such as Codex Sinaiticus (fourth century), and Codex Alexandrinus (c.450) include all of the deuterocanonical books mixed in with the others and not separated.

8) The practice of collecting these books into a separate unit dates back no further than 1520 (in other words, it was a novel innovation of Protestantism). This is admitted by, for example, the Protestant New English Bible (Oxford University Press, 1976), in its "Introduction to the Apocrypha," (p.iii).

9) Protestantism, following Martin Luther, removed the deuterocanonical books from their Bibles due to their clear teaching of doctrines which had been recently repudiated by Protestants, such as prayers for the dead (Tobit 12:12, 2 Maccabees 12:39-45 ff.; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:29), intercession of dead saints (2 Maccabees 15:14; cf. Revelation 6:9-10), and intermediary intercession of angels (Tobit 12:12,15; cf. Revelation 5:8, 8:3-4). We know this from plain statements of Luther and other Reformers.

10) Luther was not content even to let the matter rest there, and proceeded to cast doubt on many other books of the Bible which are accepted as canonical by all Protestants. He considered Job and Jonah mere fables, and Ecclesiastes incoherent and incomplete. He wished that Esther (along with 2 Maccabees) "did not exist," and wanted to "toss it into the Elbe" river.

[Later clarifying note, added on 9-13-07: the red words I no longer agree with, as stated, based on subsequent in-depth research that I have undertaken since 1994, when this was written (perhaps it was written as early as 1991). Like any careful, conscientious researcher, I sometimes (gladly) modify -- even sometimes reverse -- earlier understandings with further study. For my current opinions on Luther and the canon, see:

Luther's Outrageous Assertions About Certain Biblical Books

Did Martin Luther Deny the Canonicity of Esther? ]


11)
The New Testament fared scarcely better under Luther's gaze. He rejected from the New Testament Canon ("chief books") Hebrews, James ("epistle of straw"), Jude and Revelation, and placed them at the end of his translation, as a New Testament "Apocrypha." He regarded them as non-apostolic. Of the book of Revelation he said, "Christ is not taught or known in it." These opinions are found in Luther's Prefaces to biblical books, in his German translation of 1522.

[Later clarifying note, added on 9-13-07: Luther softened or rejected these more radical opinions in later, revised prefaces, some 20 years later, so that I would write this portion of my first book differently today, in light of my research done since 1994]
12) Although the New Testament does not quote any of these books directly, it does closely reflect the thought of the deuterocanonical books in many passages. For example, Revelation 1:4 and 8:3-4 appear to make reference to Tobit 12:15:St. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:29, seems to have 2 Maccabees 12:44 in mind. This saying of Paul is one of the most difficult in the New Testament for Protestants to interpret, given their theology:

This passage of St. Paul shows that it was the custom of the early Church to watch, pray and fast for the souls of the deceased. In Scripture, to be baptized is often a metaphor for affliction or (in the Catholic understanding) penance (for example, Matthew 3:11, Mark 10:38-39, Luke 3:16, 12:50). Since those in heaven have no need of prayer, and those in hell can't benefit from it, these practices, sanctioned by St. Paul, must be directed towards those in purgatory. Otherwise, prayers and penances for the dead make no sense, and this seems to be largely what Paul is trying to bring out. The "penance interpretation" is contextually supported by the next three verses, where St. Paul speaks of "Why am I in peril every hour? . . . I die every day," and so forth.

As a third example, Hebrews 11:35 mirrors the thought of 2 Maccabees 7:29:

13) Ironically, in some of the same verses where the New Testament is virtually quoting the "Apocrypha," doctrines are taught which are rejected by Protestantism, and which were a major reason why the deuterocanonical books were "demoted" by them. Therefore, it was not as easy to eliminate these disputed doctrines from the Bible as it was (and is) supposed, and Protestants still must grapple with much New Testament data which does not comport with their beliefs.

14) Despite this lowering of the status of the deuterocanonical books by Protestantism, they were still widely retained separately in Protestant Bibles for a long period of time (unlike the prevailing practice today). John Wycliffe, considered a forerunner of Protestantism, included them in his English translation. Luther himself kept them separately in his Bible, describing them generally as (although sub-scriptural) "useful and good to read." Zwingli and the Swiss Protestants, and the Anglicans maintained them in this secondary sense also. The English Geneva Bible (1560) and Bishop's Bible (1568) both included them as a unit. Even the Authorized, or King James Version of 1611 contained the "Apocrypha" as a matter of course. And up to the present time many Protestant Bibles continue this practice. The revision of the King James Bible (completed in 1895) included these books, as did the Revised Standard Version (1957), the New English Bible (1970), and the Goodspeed Bible (1939), among others.

15) The deuterocanonical books are read regularly in public worship in Anglicanism, and also among the Eastern Orthodox, and most Protestants and Jews fully accept their value as historical and religious documents, useful for teaching, even though they deny them full canonical status.

It is apparent, then, that the Catholic "case" for these scriptural books carries a great deal of weight, certainly at the very least equal to the Protestant view.

Written in 1996 by Dave Armstrong. Included in A Biblical Defense of Catholicism: pp. 259-264.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History
KEYWORDS: apocrypha; bible; deuterocanonicals; scripture
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Athanasius doesn’t say “for edification.” That could ambiguously be interpreted as strengthening one’s faith, inspiring courage, whatever. Athanasius says it’s purpose is to instruct Christians in the ways of Godliness. In other words, moral doctrine. He certainly does not say that hey are “not to be used for doctrine.” And he most certainly doesn’t call them fiction.

He merely admits that they aren’t “canon.” Whose canon? Athanasius’ own incorrect enumeration of the New Testament makes plain that there is no settled Christian canon. He is referring to the Jews.

Sorry, you can’t have it both ways: Athanasius is either contradicting Sola Scriptura, by looking to something outside scripture for moral doctrine, and/or by “canon” he doesn’t mean the Christian canon.


81 posted on 10/29/2013 8:09:43 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
Remember, the claim in the original post was the Apocrypha CITED in the NT. None of the below references are cited (quoted) from the Apocrypha.

Sirach 51 is quoted by Mt 11:28-30: As mentioned before this is not a citation from Sirach 51:

There are “key words” but not a quote. Using the same approach of key words would bring us to several passages in Jeremiah (Matthew 11:28 : Jer 31:25; John 7:37; Matthew 11:29 : John 13:15; Eph 4:20; Phil 2:5; 1 Pet 2:21; 1 John 2:6; Matthew 11:29 : Jer 6:16; Matthew 11:30 : 1 John 5:3). I will note this is a beautiful prayer.

Tobit 12:15 is confirmed by Rev 8:2:

This does match with the number being 7. It is not a citation. Also found in Tobit is an angel who instructs to catch a fish pull its guts out and burn the guts to ward off the devil. We see angelic visitations throughout the OT and NT. Each time they are delivering the direct Words of God. The angel visiting in Tobit seems to interact in daily living and delivering guidance that is not directly quoted from God. In Chapter 12 all assembled laid prostrate before the angel. Angels in Daniel and other places tell the human not to bow or kneel before them. This angel seems to accept the worship and honor of those assembled in Tobit. The angel also says he is delivering secrets. Alarms are going off…spider senses tingling.

Sirach 27:6 is referenced by Judith 11:19:

Using Apocrypha to validate Apocrypha? Again my statement was where in the NT is the Apocrypha CITED.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds:

Again, there are several non-Apocrypha OT and NT sources for this (Psalm 62:12 : Job 34:11; Ps 28:4; Jer 17:10; Matt 16:27; Rom 2:6; 1 Cor 3:8; Rev 2:23)

1 Peter 1:6-7 “as gold tested by fire” is taken from Wisdom 3:6:

Again found in other places. Most notably Proverbs 17:3

James 2:23 “it was reckoned to him as righteousness” quotes 1 Macc 2:53:

Truly??? How about Genesis 15.

Heb 11:35 refers to the historical events of 2 Macc 7:

The historical events refer to 1 Kin 17:23; 2 Kin 4:36f

Heb 11:5 tells us the fate of Enoch, recorded in Sir 44:16, beyond what is known from Gen 5:24:

Hebrews 11 does not mention “beyond what is known from Genesis 5:24.” Hebrews 11 stays within the confines of the information of Genesis 5. Maybe the Vatican should add the Book of Enoch to their canon if they want to add more information on Enoch. The Hebrews reference does not cite Sirach.

Eph 6:14 uses identical imagery from Wisdom 5:18:

So does Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 59.

Romans 1:20 would be baseless speculation if not for Wis 13:1:

Incorrect statement. Refer to Job 12:7-9; Ps 19:1-6; Jer 5:21f; Isaiah 45; Genesis 1&2.

Mary’s utterance in Luke 1:52 is from Sir 10:14:

Again, not a citation. However closest to exact words is Job 5:11 and Proverbs 29:23. Several other Proverbs repeat this theme of bringing the prideful low and low are lifted.

Herod’s decree in MT 2:16 is prophecies in Wisdom 11:7:

No way. Wisdom 11:7 gives no indication of prophecy. It is so nebulous. But Matthew does tell us where the prophecy comes from…Jer. 31:15.

Wisdom 2:16 is the only place in the Old Testament wherein it is foretold that the Messiah will call God his Father.

Woe. You need to read all of Wisdom 2 (context is way off). However your statement is incorrect. Psalm 2:7 “He said to Me, You are my Son, Today I have begotten You.” And Psalm 89:26

John 10:22 depicts Jesus celebrating the Feast of the Dedication, set forth in 1 Macc 4:59: Maccabees is good history. So is Josephus. Your apologetics site missed a very important point…Maccabees is good historical context for the fulfillment of several of Daniel’s prophecies. So is Josephus. Good history but not Scriptures. The fulfillment of the destruction of the Temple in Matthew 24 is not in NT Scriptures. But we know from secular history that the Temple was destroyed just as Jesus prophesied. Josephus records this. Again good history but not Scriptures.

Further, Jesus self-identifies with the Temple, on this feast, comparing his own dedication to his father with the Temple’s dedication in 1 Macc 4:36: Maccabees is good history. So is Josephus. Your apologetics site missed a very important point…Maccabees is good historical context for the fulfillment of several of Daniel’s prophecies. So is Josephus. Good history but not Scriptures. The fulfillment of the destruction of the Temple in Matthew 24 is not in NT Scriptures. But we know from secular history that the Temple was destroyed just as Jesus prophesied. Josephus records this. Again good history but not Scriptures.

Therefore, we see not one direct citation (quote) from the Apocrypha in the NT. The best case scenario is allusions. Those allusions do not stand on their own when compared to other non-Apocrypha OT references. Maccabees is good history and should be read to get a good understanding of intertestamental events.

82 posted on 10/29/2013 11:01:25 AM PDT by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter

Good work.

Save it for later reference. It would be a shame to have to go through all that work, all over again.

83 posted on 10/29/2013 11:32:02 AM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: BlueDragon

Thanks Bro. To state for the record...I did not lift this from a website:) I went to each Apocrypha reference in the DRB.


84 posted on 10/29/2013 12:04:45 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter

I already recognized that SOME of them are debatable, but clearly some of the ways you excuse some of them away simply don’t hold up.

In nearly all cases, the Khetuvim books are merely referenced if referenced at all in the New Testament. By this standard, most of the ones I’ve cited hold up at least as well as the Khetuvim books of the Protestant canon. But look at Wisdom 3:6, for instance: Yes, a similar metaphor is used in Proverbs, but the New Testament uses the same metaphor in the same way as Wisdom.

Or consider Hebrews 11:35. Yes, Widows received back their dead sons in other places in the bible. But Hebrews specifically states that “others were tortured, refusing to be released that they may gain a better resurrection.” That’s what’s unique about Maccabees: a widow explicitly formulates a belief in a worldly resurrection of the dead, wherein her son will be returned to her having gained a better resurrection for having been tortured for the sake of God. That’s not in any of the sources you cited.

Or take Genesis 5:24: In the light of Hebrews, one can suppose that “God took him” certainly did mean that God lifted him to Heaven. But that’d be Paul begging his own source! If Paul is to know that Enoch went into Heaven ... not merely speculate ... than he can look only to the non-Canonical book of Enoch, or to Sirach, which states this explicitly, before the Book of Enoch.


85 posted on 10/29/2013 12:06:45 PM PDT by dangus
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To: redleghunter

And so what if Josephus is also good history. Can a secular history establish a religious festival for the Jews?


86 posted on 10/29/2013 12:08:04 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

Since it has been alleged that merely echoing language or retelling episodes of the “Apocrypha” does not count as the New Testament citing the “Apocrypha,” here is a list of instances where the Old Testament is directly quoted and labelled as scripture by New Testament.

Isaiah 53
Psalms 46
Deuteronomy 23
The 12 Minor Prophets 21
Exodus 17
Genesis 17
Proverbs 7
Jeremiah 5
Leviticus 4
Samuel 4
Kings 2
Job 1
Numbers 0
Joshua 0
Judges 0
Ruth 0
Chronicles 0
Ezra-Nehemiah 0
Ecclesiastes 0
Song of Songs 0
Lamentations 0
Ezekiel 0
Daniel 0


87 posted on 10/29/2013 12:41:16 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
I already recognized that SOME of them are debatable, but clearly some of the ways you excuse some of them away simply don’t hold up.

So you basically threw spaghetti on the wall from some website (I know because I saw the same list on another forum) and hoped it would pass muster. Well it didn't.

You can keep posting Heb 11:35 as Maccabees, but it breaks with the other references all coming from the Law, Prophets and Psalms.

You will also note I only posted a few verses on the Wisdom claims. I have many other verses from Proverbs, Job et al.

If Paul is to know that Enoch went into Heaven ... not merely speculate ... than he can look only to the non-Canonical book of Enoch, or to Sirach, which states this explicitly, before the Book of Enoch.

What is the speculation? Everyone else in the genealogy dies and Enoch is taken. For clarity look at the Orthodox Jewish Bible:

22 And Chanoch walked with HaElohim after he fathered Metushelach three hundred shanah, and fathered banim and banot; 23 And all the days of Chanoch were three hundred sixty and five shanah; 24 And Chanoch walked with HaElohim; and he was not; for Elohim took him.

There is not much speculation there. Plus we both miss the point that Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit. In addition, the key words "And Chanoch walked with HaElohim" is the focus of Epistle.

Your reference to Hebrews 11:35 when put in context with the entire passage tells us who the author of Hebrews is addressing. Here it is in context and you can look up examples of each claim in 2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings:

32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; 36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.

The women received (past tense) their children by resurrection. This happened with Elijah and Elisha (I gave you the references). The "they might obtain a better resurrection" refers to all of the above mentioned.

The Apocrypha argument is becoming a bit threadbare like my 1986 NY Mets World Series Champions T-shirt.

88 posted on 10/29/2013 1:07:44 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: dangus

It is like Purim. Please show me where the Temple re-dedication was directed by God. God’s Presence departed the Temple in Ezekiel 10. The Glory of the Lord never returned to the Temple until Jesus Christ walked up the steps.


89 posted on 10/29/2013 1:19:15 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter

>> So you basically threw spaghetti on the wall from some website and hoped it would pass muster.. <<

No, I recognize that there is some matter of subjectivity in deciding what’s a citation and what’s merely an allusion.

>> (I know because I saw the same list on another forum) <<

Funny, because although I had a couple sources, I whittled them down to a much smaller number; the list, therefore, is my own.

>> You can keep posting Heb 11:35 as Maccabees, but it breaks with the other references all coming from the Law, Prophets and Psalms. <<

You’ll note that of the Historical books I listed in a later post (Ezra-Nehemiah, Judges, Joshua, Ruth, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles. Esther), only Samuel and Kings have any citations at all. Most historical cites actually come from “the Law.” Thus, the dueterocanonical books, being mostly historical books are going to tend to fail your criteria. The fact that 1 & 2 Maccabees (being separate books from the start, unlike Chronicles, Samuel, Kings, and Ezra-Nehemiah) have citations in SPITE of being historical books rather than the Law, only adds to their legitimacy.

>> Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit. <<

I didn’t miss it. He has an inspired, infallible interpretation of the Old Testament, but never bases any arguments on his own sensibilities, but always on previous revelation. That God took Enoch to Heaven is hardly obvious from Genesis, and Paul’s/Wisdom’s meaning of saying he did is theologically challenging: Did Enoch go to Heaven without being redeemed by Christ?

>> The women received (past tense) their children by resurrection. This happened with Elijah and Elisha (I gave you the references). <<

Yes, it did. But you’re looking at the wrong half of the verse. What I was referring to was “and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;” Although, for instance, David prophetically grasps at some notion that he will not spend eternity in Sheol, (also, see Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc.) nowhere in the Protestant canon does anyone explicitly state that they will be resurrected. The word doesn’t even exist in the Protestant Old Testament canon!

I don’t even have a clue what you mean to reference by “The ‘they might obtain a better resurrection’ refers to all of the above mentioned.” Where in the references mentioned does anyone accept torture for the sake of God?


90 posted on 10/29/2013 1:39:08 PM PDT by dangus
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To: redleghunter

And because it’s a common rhetorical technique when someone is losing an argument to pick up on a highly controvertible asserion, even if it is off-topic, I’ll just cut you off:

“Did Enoch go to Heaven without being redeemed by Christ?” The answer is no. But Paul brings up a startling question by mentioning Sirach, which he wouldn’t bring up if he had stuck to Genesis.


91 posted on 10/29/2013 1:44:16 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
You should be like Santa Claus and check that list again. I see 6 errors just by glancing at it. Which means the complete list is in error.

Remember I was answering a challenge that the NT CITES (that means QUOTES) the Apocrypha. That proved to be an incorrect claim. There are allusions I admitted, but where there were allusions there were plenty of non-Apocrypha works (more authoritative works) that either alluded as well or were direct citations.

Please kind Ser, do some research because just sitting at the keyboard I can see the following errors below:

-Numbers: The Cloud on the Tabernacle: God's Presence (pretty important in the NT)

-Daniel is directly quoted by Jesus Christ in MT 24. How could you miss that?

-Jonah is missing from your list. Another direct reference from Jesus Christ. Three days in the belly of the fish...three days buried in the earth.(maybe that is what you mean by a minor prophet). Not so minor if the King of Kings mentioned it.

I could go on but it looks like another internet lift from some Jesuit FB page. I hope you can refine the list in the other post. Because it is in error.

Remember kind Ser, I never made the claim you did in the previous post. I never said all of the OT books were quoted in the NT. Rather someone on the Roman Catholic side made the bold claim "the NT CITES the Apocrypha." We laid that claim to waste. Then I received pings saying "oh but it references it." I then laid out "perhaps allusions", but where there were allusions in the NT to the Apocrypha, there were also many non-Apocrypha OT references too. And on the Tobit claims, I also pointed out that there seemed to be some funny stuff going on in that book. Angels hanging out with humans, directing them to burn fish guts to ward off the devil. Giving marital advice. Stuff usually out of the comfort zone for angels elsewhere in the Bible.

Then we parried about historical references. I pointed out that too was attributed to other OT sources.

So here we are. The Word of God answered by the Word of God vs. a side clutching to the Apocrypha. As if the Apocrypha enlightens God's Salvation Plan for mankind. And it seems the updated direction is for your side to do everything in their power to tear apart the Bible to put Apocrypha on equal footing.

I will also note, it was not a "heretical Prot" who posted this article, but a Roman Catholic.

Perhaps when posting things pertaining to the Bible, searching the Bible from both points of view FIRST would be an effective approach (it is the Evangelical approach). However, I was educated by Jesuits and know they are as wiley as Rommel in desert warfare. They are very good at deconstruction in an argument against the Bible, when it is construction that is needed when we delve into the Holy Words of our Lord and Savior.

92 posted on 10/29/2013 2:17:10 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter
DRB? Douay Rheims bible, I take it (but would rather leave it :0 )

Some online version, with notes as to alleged "quotations" from OT Apocrypha?

I did notice that the other gave no source for the list of "favorites". Leaving you having to do things the hard way.

In the past I've seen a few different lists purporting to be NT use of Apocrypha, with the one at "scripture-catholic" among the worst. As bad as that was --- it was reorganized to make it even more difficult to dig out what was actually being said, with the claim itself reliant upon the commentary.

If one doesn't go to all the effort to dig out each verse of Apocrypha, then compare them to claim, then I can see how in the realm of RC apologetic, with those claims being oft repeated (but not examined with critical eye as to test for whether or not they can be falsified) would lead many to believe those sort of claims were true. But they're not.

In the past, I was able to dismiss one or two listed at scripture-catholic, from off the top of my head (and my head isn't one that could be much bragged about) and then found another quite by accident, while hip-deep in searching through and comparing OT text, in way of examination towards wider "thematic" context, on issues unrelated to Apocrypha/NT claims.

There are golden threads as it were, running through the texts from the very beginnings. Those themes are interwoven into strong cordage, making spurious deviations from those themes stand out like broken filaments of a line or wire rope which snag badly on the hands if not oh-so-carefully handled.

What's really a pain, is when as you have pointed out with some of those passages, that the information, even almost word-for-word be found elsewhere than Apocrypha, is still stubbornly attributed to being sourced from Apocrypha, when it was itself nothing new, but found there in those works do to those writers having accessed or touched upon some previous theme -- but quite often mangling it with enough change of context and usage there (in Apocryphal works) to be disjointed compared to original OT use, and then later theological application as can be discerned in NT.

But to explain those "spurs" and broken strands, takes many words, leaving efforts to thoroughly debunk the listings be as a giant rabbit warren-maze sort of affair, which at times is defended by snakes which hiss & bite. So my thanks and admiration to you for your efforts. I could see that it was no cut-and-paste job. I would that some treatments along those lines be more readily available -- but do NOT feel yourself obligated. Let the Spirit be your guide --

Rabbit holes (and gopher holes) are fine for rodents, I guess, but otherwise I despise them. It's too bad a guy couldn't just give it the Carl Spackler treatment, and call it a day.


93 posted on 10/29/2013 2:30:03 PM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: dangus
Thus, the dueterocanonical books, being mostly historical books are going to tend to fail your criteria.

It was never my criteria to begin with. This all started with a bold claim that the NT CITES the Apocrypha. Let the dead horse RIP.

You then tried to move the goal posts by laying down there were OT non-Apocrypha books which were not quoted or cited in the NT. I then told you I never made a contention every book in the OT was quoted in the NT. Never once did I do so. You offered a list, which was inaccurate and I responded to that list.

What you missed in an earlier post,to the poster of this hit piece article, that the non-Apocrypha OT books (minus Esther) all have God directly speaking or a prophet saying "thus saith The Lord."

94 posted on 10/29/2013 2:36:06 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: dangus
He has an inspired, infallible interpretation of the Old Testament, but never bases any arguments on his own sensibilities, but always on previous revelation.

I presume this does not count as revelation enough?:

9 A vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing and appealing to him, and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

“Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.”

8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.”

95 posted on 10/29/2013 2:44:41 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: dangus
I don’t even have a clue what you mean to reference by “The ‘they might obtain a better resurrection’ refers to all of the above mentioned.” Where in the references mentioned does anyone accept torture for the sake of God?

Within context again however highlighted:

32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; 36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.

96 posted on 10/29/2013 2:50:38 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: dangus
“Did Enoch go to Heaven without being redeemed by Christ?”

God is the God of the living not the dead. Jesus stated that. That is why He was the God of Abraham, Isacc and Jacob. But we digress.

Sirach 44:

16 Enoch pleased the Lord and was transferred to heaven, an example for the conversion of all generations.

Hebrews 5:

5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

Genesis 5:

21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. 22 Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

There are all the verses. In Hebrews 11 we see Enoch did not die; he was taken by God; and he obtained witness (walked with God). All matches the Genesis account. Sirach adds: “an example for the conversion of all generations.” An excellent commentary, but Hebrews is not pointing to this

97 posted on 10/29/2013 3:25:30 PM PDT by redleghunter
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Comment #98 Removed by Moderator

To: BlueDragon

LOL. You are a great writer:)


99 posted on 10/29/2013 3:36:22 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: dangus
which he wouldn’t bring up if he had stuck to Genesis

Ah but Paul did stick with Genesis. Look at the order of the figures mentioned. It is in order:

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

100 posted on 10/29/2013 3:45:18 PM PDT by redleghunter
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