What if ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’ is Wrong?

The Christian Diarist ^ | October 20, 2013 | JP

[redleghunter]

Do you believe Christians will establish The Kingdom on earth and then Christ returns? I ask because I believe the Eastern Orthodox have a similar belief and call it Christendom.

[Cronos]

Like I said -- Hus' case had more than a tinge of Czech nationalism contra Germanizations

The Czechs tied themselves to the German Empire and their kings aimed to rule it

however, , tying yourself to a higher culture (the Germanic one) is always difficult -- you can get swamped. And that's what happened to the Czechs.

The Hus reaction was against Germanization to a large extent, hence the effort to keep the Czech language alive

[Hoodat]

I believe that the kingdom is established in us. I won’t waste any thought on the Second Coming. As far as I am concerned, Christ never left. He lives in me.

[boatbums]

My opinion on 'saved' is that it is something that technically won't happen until after I die. It's not something that I have to convince myself of while I am alive. As long as my relationship with the Father grows deeper, my assurance rests with Him because of who He reveals Himself to be in my life. If I truly relate with him as 'Father' and son, then I have no fear about where I stand.

Though I agree the term "born again" has been perverted and misused, I still believe it expressed an extremely essential point in why Christ came in the first place. He certainly didn't come here to "show us the way to live" - though we should strive to be more like Jesus every day. He didn't even come to demonstrate how we can live perfect, holy lives in order to please God - though we are called to "be holy as I am holy". His primary purpose was as the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world. He was the fulfillment of the Passover lamb, the blood of bulls and goats placed on the Mercy Seat on every Day of Atonement and in all feast days and sacrifices and offerings given to the Jews for signs of future completion.

Being "saved", "born again", "born from above", being sanctified, justified, made righteous, made holy - are all terms that signify both a state and a status, or condition. We were born into this world ALREADY at enmity with God. We inherited a sin nature and nobody has to teach us to sin - we figure it out pretty early all by ourselves. In Ephesians 2, Paul pretty much spreads it out for us:

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands) — remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

So, when we have received Jesus Christ as Savior, believing on Him to save us from our sins, we are ALREADY positionally seated with Him in heaven, even though we still inhabit our human flesh here on earth. Our "state" is being the redeemed, blood-bought children of God because we WERE born again into His family by faith. Instead of seeing being saved as a "not-until-I-die" kinda thing, God wants us to understand that we ARE, right now, saved. When we die, we WILL be with Him in heaven because we have been born again of "incorruptible seed".

If you are His, your relationship will continue to grow deeper and stronger because it is Christ IN you, the hope of glory. There was a "mystery" Paul said that was revealed to him by Christ - it was something that Jesus did not mention in His earthly ministry which WAS about the Kingdom of God. This mystery, Paul said was that:

I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness — the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me.

We do not need to fear, because Christ IS in us and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption - when we go to dwell with Him for eternity in heaven. This is an assurance that we can know RIGHT NOW. He wouldn't have said that if it's an uncertainty or something we cannot know until we die. As Paul says in Romans 8:15,

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

Hope you have a good night!

[Hoodat]

I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

John 10:10

[verga]

YOUR own definition showed that ABOVE is the PRIMARY DEFINITION.

This is my last post to you, feel free to have the last word.

[Iscool]

YOUR own definition showed that ABOVE is the PRIMARY DEFINITION.

This is my last post to you, feel free to have the last word.

And as the scriptures show, and most all of the translators know, the primary definition is not the one always used, or required...

As long as there are secondary and tertiary definitions of words, it shows they have a use and have been used and in this case, they are used where necessary in the scriptures...

We must be born once and then born from above the second time, thus; born again...Pretty simple...

[Dutchboy88]

"And the Body of Christ is a living organism. It can no more lose a finger or a leg and remain intact than we can lose a leg and be able to tap dance."

LOL. Excellent analogy. If God is building His Body, and all will be raised up on that day (John 6), you are right...how could a part be lost? We are in the hands of the Most High and He has written our names on the back of His hand.

[verga]

How many times do you plan on going around this carousel??? John 3:3 uses the Greek word "ἄνωθεν (anōthen)" for "born again/from above". we already know that. HOWEVER, to insist someone is "wrong" because they do not agree to your strict use of "from above" for that Greek word only proves your OWN error. How many times in the New Testament IS that Greek word used? I'll tell you - 13 times.

If you are correct then please answer this question which none of your fellow protestants has been able to answer nor even attempted to answer: If Jesus really meant to say born "again" why would he use the ambiguous word Anothon, instead of the word "Palon" which actually unambiguously means again?

[count-your-change]

First, Jesus probably wasn't speaking to Nicodemus in Greek so it would be John who chose the word and John knew what word he wanted to use and what it meant.

The word anothon may seem to us ambiguous but Jesus reply to Nicodemus may have had more than one level of meaning such that a simple “again” in Greek would not convey.

If we are to say “above” is the best or only proper word to use then “from above” in what sense?

[verga]

I think I understand your question, If I do not please feel free to correct me.

If we are to say “above” is the best or only proper word to use then “from above” in what sense?

In the sense that it could only come from God. Nicodemus was focused on the Carnal/ material aspect.

Just as Jesus had to be the Son of God. No mere man could be the savior of the world. It had to be Jesus who was both man and God.

There are three types of "Beings." There are animals (Dogs, Chickens, cats etc...) they have no soul they are pure material. Next you have the Angels. They are pure spirit, created not born, no material nature.

Then there is the humans. We are both Spirit and Flesh, posing both a spiritual and material nature.

God created Adam and then breathed life into him. The word used is Pneuma, or spirit.

Since we have already had a carnal fleshly birth this "birth" must be from above. It must be from God, a spiritual birth, restoring the bond destroyed by Adam and Eve.

[count-your-change]

Nicodemus and Jesus spoke the same language so “again”, a second time, must have been at one meaning of what Jesus said. By further explanation Jesus shows Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus’ statement. John used a word with several possible meanings for a reason.

Born physically, born from spirit, born and born “again”. “From above”? Certainly.

I think either one might be justified but the term “born again” may make some think of the over used question, “Are you born again?” and so dislike it from the start.

[Iscool]

There are three types of "Beings." There are animals (Dogs, Chickens, cats etc...) they have no soul they are pure material.

Animals have souls but no spirits...

[Dutchboy88]

"Had any person been capable of saving himself by himself, there would have been NO need for Christ to have suffered and died. In light of that, how equally foolish to think our efforts, that could do nothing to win our salvation at the start, will benefit the keeping of that gracious gift to the end. It's either grace all the way, or works all the way - not both!"

I have been out, so forgive me for not noting this sooner. Very good points. It is either grace, or a wage due us for something we did. Absolutely.

[A CA Guy]

Christ said GO AND SIN NO MORE. Doesn't sound like you have a blessing to show off your ding-dong in some gay pride parade or adulterous affair.
You could ask Christ for forgiveness again.

LORD I AM NOT WORTY TO RECEIVE YOU, BUT SAY THE WORD AND I SHALL BE HEALED.

We are never worthy or sin free, but I think we are to be in an active journey to behave and do our best in this human condition and hell on earth.

[Dutchboy88]

"Christ said GO AND SIN NO MORE. Doesn't sound like you have a blessing to show off your ding-dong in some gay pride parade or adulterous affair. You could ask Christ for forgiveness again. LORD I AM NOT WORTY TO RECEIVE YOU, BUT SAY THE WORD AND I SHALL BE HEALED.

We are never worthy or sin free, but I think we are to be in an active journey to behave and do our best in this human condition and hell on earth."

There are so many errors in this post it may take several paragraphs to address them all.

First, yes, of course, Jesus said to go forth and sin no more. Now the question is, "Can you do this?" My suspicion is that if we all followed you around watching every move, every thought, every lapse (when you did not love the Lord your God with you whole heart, soul and mind), we would find you wanting. Recall, Jesus said your righteousness had to exceed that of the Pharisees...not just that you needed to stop sinning.

Your post belies the fact that you think NOT doing sin is enough to merit salvation. Tragically, the human condition suffers from two problems...Sin and lacking righteousness. Even if you no longer sinned, you would not be righteous enough to merit heaven. Thus, we need Jesus' blood and we need His righteousness. Both are applied when God adopts an elect child.

And, you are correct, showing off your "ding-dong" (yack, gag, arghh) at a gay pride parade will not gain a blessing. For that matter, Paul notes that those stuck in this kind of life (and adultery, promiscuity, etc.) will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Evidently, they are not among the elect, so it does not matter what they say, ask for, beg for, cry for...they are lost. Note, Esau begged for repentance with tears, but was not among the elect and was hated by God. That is their fate. Sorry about that.

So, if you believe we are saying the Scriptures teach that saved men/women do not hate sin and love to not be held to any standard, you are not reading these posts very carefully. We hate sin in ourselves, but we are not so blind as to think that has eradicated it. We strain and strive to avoid it...but know that it is always squeezing out of our pores. We are vile humans. And, there is no hope...unless Jesus decides to rescue us from ourselves.

And, no, we are not on an "active journey to behave and do our best in this human condition". This remark has the trace element of self-made religion, not Christianity. God will not, repeat not, reward great, honest effort. He will reward RESULTS. So, if you want to be found in a righteousness of your making, I caution you (as Paul does), be ready for utter scrutiny of every moment of your life...and you will lose.

Jesus said, many are called; few are chosen. If He has drawn you (John 6), you cannot escape Him. He will break your heart, confront you with your inability to stop sinning, point out your lack of righteousness, expose your helplessness, let you know that if HE does not do this for you, you will be lost without hope. This is His decision to save you...if He has chosen you before the universe began.

That is what Paul is getting at in Rom. 9. And, if you are normal, you will scream, "That is not fair!". Paul also has an answer for that complaint...Tough. God really is God and He can do anything He wishes...and it is perfectly holy because He says it is holy. Who are you to argue back to God?

[CynicalBear]

Well put and spot on!

[A CA Guy]

Hello CAN WE SIN NO MORE? No, thus my comment about dealing with this human condition in our hell on earth and asking for Christ for forgiveness AGAIN.
I think we are in an endless attempt to not sin and we all fall short and depend on Christ because it is impossible in our human condition to not blow it on some level.

Once saved to me would mean we already at least once would have accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior for our salvation, at least we are aware of our Savior.
We depend on the love of Christ for forgiveness, but if we lose our way, we could IMO lose being saved if you do not embrace Christ as your Lord and Savior for your salvation, or even worse turn against God.

We depend on God and His son Jesus because we don’t have the stuff on our own to be worthy of God or Heaven IMO.
God loving us send His only son Christ here for our salvation. It is possible to gain and IMO lose that salvation if we turn our back on God, bit like the sinner on the cross with Christ who asked to be with him, it is never to late while alive to rectify our weakness and lack of worthiness regarding salvation and heaven.

[Dutchboy88]

"We depend on the love of Christ for forgiveness, but if we lose our way, we could IMO lose being saved if you do not embrace Christ as your Lord and Savior for your salvation, or even worse turn against God."

You did not read my post very carefully. Your remarks above (and those within the related post) are not the Gospel. You correctly put the "IMO" addition because this is your opinion, not Scripture. Re-read my post.

[A CA Guy]

I think God sent Christ to save us, not deny us salvation. True we all sin out of our pours, but that is why we need to acknowledge Christ as our Lord and Savior and should really try to not live by our sin nature.

We are imperfect, Christ came to save the imperfect and if he can save someone on the Cross next to Him then everyone has a shot.