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Posted on 10/12/2013 9:34:46 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
I grieve every time we Christians eat our own daily.
"The problem isn’t so much the phrase “Mother of God...” "Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
"...since, even though it has no basis in the scripture, people saying it can understand it as meaning the mother of Jesus, and not of His divinity."And four times over, thank you. That is exactly what we mean.
"...However, the problem with the way the RCC uses it, is they, in practice, make her the mother of His deity too, and thus put the Mother on equal grounds with the son; nay, perhaps on a superior level,..."Not true, This would be idolatry. It would be making a creature equal with the Creator, which is impossible.
"... since she is able to save people from His wrath, who He Himself would not have saved unless she stepped in and placated His anger. Thus the RCC use the term to prop up their idolatry."You have a pretty comprehensive misunderstanding of what you are saying. Mary's ability to pray as intercessor is the same as your, my, or anybody's ability to help others by intercessory prayer. Greater than mine, though, because of her great holiness: "Behold, all generations will call me blessed."
Find me in the Catechism where it says that she intervenes to save some "who[m] He Himself would not have saved unless she stepped in and placated His anger."
You may have encountered this in some genre of mystical writing, meaning, something reported as 'private revelation,' but this is not a part of Catholic doctrine. Quite the contrary, Mary is the Lord's handmaid, not the director (or corrector) of the Savior!
Glad you gave the the opportunity to clarify the non-doctrinal status of purported 'private revelation'.
“You have a pretty comprehensive misunderstanding of what you are saying. Mary’s ability to pray as intercessor is the same as your, my, or anybody’s ability to help others by intercessory prayer.”
That’s impossible since I cannot hear you praying to me, nor can I hear millions of Catholics praying to me (if they decided to do so for whatever reason) even if I wanted to, since it would require me to be personally present with each individual at the same time, and have the cognitive abilities to comprehend them. By definition, if you are praying to Mary and she can hear you, then she is omniscient and omnipresent so that she can hear all of these simultaneous prayers. And not only that, but she knows the personal history of each of these people, the state of their heart and their devotion, and is thus able to decide whether to answer or not to answer. Thus, she has the powers of divinity.
Also keep in mind I am not a Catholic (anymore), and so when I see Catholics bowing at her statue, offering praise, exaltation, even incense to her, I, like anyone else in the world, would recognize that as indistinguishable from worship for a deity, even though she might be lower in the pantheon than, say, Jove.
Now as to the Roman Catholic teaching on the matter:
From the Secret of the Rosary, endorsed by your Popes:
“One day the King fell seriously ill and when he was given up for dead he found himself, in a vision, before the judgement seat of Our Lord. Many devils were there accusing him of all the sins he had committed and Our Lord as Sovereign Judge was just about to condemn him to hell when Our Lady appeared to intercede for him. She called for a pair of scales and had his sins placed in one of the balances whereas she put the rosary that he had always worn on the other scale, together with all the Rosaries that had been said because of his example. It was found that the Rosaries weighed more than his sins.
Looking at him with great kindness Our Lady said: “As a reward for this little honor that you paid me in wearing my Rosary, I have obtained a great grace for you from my Son. Your life will be spared for a few more years. See that you spend these years wisely, and do penance.”
When the King regained consciousness he cried out: “Blessed be the Rosary of the Most Holy Virgin Mary, by which I have been delivered from eternal damnation!”
After he had recovered his health he spent the rest of his life in spreading devotion to the Holy Rosary and said it faithfully every day.
People who love the Blessed Virgin out to follow the example of King Alphonsus and that of the saints whom I have mentioned so that they too may win other souls for the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary. They will then receive great graces on earth and eternal life later on. “They that explain me shall have life everlasting life.” [1] Ecclus. 24:31”
Another story on how saying rosaries can earn you salvation:
“Later on, when she was at prayer she fell into ecstasy and had a vision of her soul appearing before the Supreme Judge. Saint Michael put all her penances and to her prayers on one side of the scale and all her sins and imperfections on the other. The tray of her good works were greatly outweighed by that of her sins and imperfections.
Filled with alarm, she cried out for mercy, imploring the help of the Blessed Virgin, her gracious advocate, who took the one and only Rosary she had said for her penance and dropped it on the tray of her good works. This one Rosary was so heavy that it weighed more than all her sins as well as her good works. Our Lady then reproved her for having refused to follow the counsel of her servant Dominic and for not saying the Rosary every day.
As soon as she came to herself she rushed and threw herself at the feet of Saint Dominic and told him all that had happened, begged his forgiveness and promised to say the Rosary faithfully every day. By this means she rose to Christian perfection and finally to the glory of everlasting life.”
http://www.rosary-center.org/secret.htm
Popes on the “sure and most efficacious means” for help from heaven:
“We constantly seek for help from Heaven - the sole means of effecting anything - that our labours and our care may obtain their wished for object. We deem that there could be no surer and more efficacious means to this end than by religion and piety to obtain the favour of the great Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, the guardian of our peace and the minister to us of heavenly grace, who is placed on the highest summit of power and glory in Heaven, in order that she may bestow the help of her patronage on men who through so many labours and dangers are striving to reach that eternal city. Now that the anniversary, therefore, of manifold and exceedingly great favours obtained by a Christian people through the devotion of the Rosary is at hand, We desire that that same devotion should be offered by the whole Catholic world with the greatest earnestness to the Blessed Virgin, that by her intercession her Divine Son may be appeased and softened in the evils which afflict us. And therefore We determined, Venerable Brethren, to despatch to you these letters in order that, informed of Our designs, your authority and zeal might excite the piety of your people to conform themselves to them.” (ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON DEVOTION OF THE ROSARY)
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01091883_supremi-apostolatus-officio_en.html
A decree to perform them:
“We decree and order that in the whole Catholic world, during this year, the devotion of the Rosary shall be solemnly celebrated by special and splendid services. From the first day of next October, therefore, until the second day of the November following, in every parish and, if the ecclesiastical authority deem it opportune and of use, in every chapel dedicated to the Blessed Virgin - let five decades of the Rosary be recited with the addition of the Litany of Loreto.” (SUPREMI APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON DEVOTION OF THE ROSARY)
The importance of the Rosary to a Pope:
“With these words, dear brothers and sisters, I set the first year of my Pontificate within the daily rhythm of the Rosary. Today, as I begin the twenty-fifth year of my service as the Successor of Peter, I wish to do the same. How many graces have I received in these years from the Blessed Virgin through the Rosary: Magnificat anima mea Dominum! I wish to lift up my thanks to the Lord in the words of his Most Holy Mother, under whose protection I have placed my Petrine ministry: Totus Tuus!” (ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF JOHN PAUL II)
Obviously, when you have Mary depicted as being more merciful and knowledgeable than the son, and devotion to her specifically saving this person from the punishment of Christ, you’ve another rival deity who is more approachable, foresighted and merciful than Christ Himself. You also deny Christ’s work on the cross.
>>How is that a “strawman”?
Because it is probably an inaccurate portrayal of reality. He gave us the one objection that he could respond to in a way that would give the Protestants no answer. He said, “The most common”. OK. Where are his numbers? What is the basis of his polling to prove the veracity of those numbers?
I do know English...and I know logic...and I know statistics. And I know BS.
As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”
So she uses Lord to mean Jesus and then uses the same exact word a sentence later to mean something different entirely....God.
Uh-huh.
Thank you for that! And still they deny their worship of Mary. Unbelievable beyond words.
As someone pointed out upthread, the Holy Spirit is God as well as the Father.
By saying *mother of God*, it makes no distinction between the different members of the Trinity.
The excuse of using the term as a means of correcting erroneous teaching about Jesus isn’t a very effective one.
If there was erroneous teaching about the divinity of Jesus which needed correction, the better method would have been to address the teaching itself rather than renaming Mary, which is no more than treating a symptom at best, while leaving the illness uncured. The problem is that it doesn’t inherently lead to better teaching about Jesus. It opens the door wide to yet more erroneous teaching, and that concerning Mary. It solves nothing.
Renaming Mary as the *mother of God* is not an improvement as it really says a different thing than *mother of Jesus* argument about His divinity notwithstanding.
By that weak argument, of saying that.....
Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary is the mother of God.
Then one could argue that....
Mary is the mother of God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
Therefore, Mary is the mother of the Holy Spirit.
and likewise.....
Mary is the mother of God.
The father is God.
Therefore, Mary is the mother of the Father.
If the Holy Spirit thought that naming Mary as the mother of God would ensure that correct teaching about Jesus, that it would be the result, surely He would have used the term in the first place.
I see no reason to *correct* the work of the Holy Spirit, as if what He did was lacking or inadequate, which is what whoever made that decision is saying.
I’m going to save your post to Mrs. Don-o. It was perfect. If someone can argue with THAT, there’s no helping them. Not in this world. Thank you!
“Because it is probably an inaccurate portrayal of reality.”
Really? First, he did NOT pose a “strawman” as that argument is often used - even here on this thread (see post 28). Second, that negates your argument here that it is an “ inaccurate portrayal of reality.” - again, since even here on this thread, it IS reality.
Finally, in the body of his position statement, he acknowledges that this is simply, “The most common objection ...”, NOT the only one.
ANOTHER great post regarding Mary! WHO can argue with this and walk away with a straight face?!
“We constantly seek for help from Heaven - the sole means of effecting anything - that our labours and our care may obtain their wished for object. We deem that there could be no surer and more efficacious means to this end than by religion and piety to obtain the favour of the great Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, the guardian of our peace and the minister to us of heavenly grace, who is placed on the highest summit of power and glory in Heaven, in order that she may bestow the help of her patronage on men who through so many labours and dangers are striving to reach that eternal city.
We desire that that same devotion should be offered by the whole Catholic world with the greatest earnestness to the Blessed Virgin, that by her intercession her Divine Son may be appeased and softened in the evils which afflict us.
What heresies.....
Romans 8:31-34 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Hebrews 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
The believer has already been judged concerning his sins. He has been forgiven and declared righteous. Jesus is not the Judge of the believers.
A Catholic. Who else?
I agree. And to think the Holy Spirit forgot to define Mary’s role in our salvation as Catholics see it is beyond comprehension.
ROFLOL!! Of COURSE, what was I thinking?? :)
>>Finally, in the body of his position statement, he acknowledges that this is simply, “The most common objection ...”, NOT the only one.
And I’m saying that it is NOT the most common objection unless he was cherry-picking the data.
“it’s a restating, and a logical corollary, of what was already stated by Elizabeth, and even by the Angel Gabriel.”
No, it is not. E-beth called her mother of my Lord (messiah). Not Mother of God. Nor does God describe her that way. Only as Mary, mother of Jesus.
“One can use a phrase that isn’t ever used in the Holy Bible. “The Holy Bible”, for instance is not found in the Bible. “My personal Savior” is never found in the Bible. “The Blessed Trinity” is never found in the Bible.”
Each example is a phrase to describe a truth found in the Bible. Mother of God is not found in the bible.
If God Himself did not call her that title in any inspired writings. Two hundred and fifty years later, as additional non-Biblical teachings began to be accepted, this title found traction.
“Mary’s ability to pray as intercessor is the same as your, my, or anybody’s ability to help others by intercessory prayer. Greater than mine, though, because of her great holiness: “Behold, all generations will call me blessed.””
False.
Mary has the identical holiness of any believer who has entrusted himself to Christ. The righteousness and holiness of Christ.
“So she uses Lord to mean Jesus and then uses the same exact word a sentence later to mean something different entirely....God.”
No, she means master or Messiah. Not God.
“Catholics don’t generally use the Bible to defend Catholic doctrine, as I have found repeatedly here. Occasionally they use it as a springboard but never build their arguments around its authority because they always come back to the Catholic”
That’s because the Catholic Church came before the gospels and Catholics compiled what you read in the Bible. Not much easier put than that.
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