Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
>> “Tribulations saints are those that come to faith in Christ after the Rapture of the Church-Age believers and after the tribulation begins.” <<
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But the scriptures say that the rapture is after the tribulation, at the last trump.
As to dispensations, I believe what the scriptures say, that the dispensation of Mystery Babylon will end at the end of the tribulation, after the First Resurrection is complete. (Rev. 15) There will be no believers left on Earth at that point, but they will return with Yeshua and his angels for the millennial reign.
Read Acts, Chapter 2. You will see clearly that Peter was speaking of the last days. It would be a time of a great revival when all Israel will be saved (Joel 2,3). Read them and understand WHO they were written to and WHAT they say.
NOW read Thessalonians, Corinthians, 1 and 2 Timothy, etc. Paul's speaking of the last days. He CLEARLY speaks of the last days as APOSTACY. NOT REVIVAL. (2 Tim. 3:1,2,5; 4:3,4).
See the differences? The "last days" of the tribulation will be filled with REVIVAL (Peter, Christ, James, John, all the OT saints prophets, especially Joel, John the Baptist, ISRAEL, knew this. It was PROPHECY, concerning the nation ISRAEL, made known FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
The "last days" of the CHURCH THE BODY OF CHRIST was a SECRET, A MYSTERY, kept SECRET from the foundation of the world, until revealed to Paul from the RISEN Christ. The Body of Christ was NOT KNOWN until Christ revealed it to Paul, and he revealed it to us. His "last days" refers DIRECTLY to OUR condition and OUR future, JUST BEFORE GOD BEGINS THE TRIBULATION. WE are going to experience APOSTACY.
Do you see the huge difference? If one is talking about REVIVAL, and the other is talking about APOSTACY, then they CANNOT be the same. And indeed they aren't. THIS is why 2 Tim. 2:15 is IMPORTANT, and unlocks the key to God's Word. Rightly dividing His Word would have showed you that Peter and Paul were talking about different "last days". BOTH are true. And BOTH come from God's OWN MOUTH. ONE has to do with PROPHECY. And the OTHER has to do with THE MYSTERY, HID IN GOD since the world BEGAN (Ephesians 3:9; Rom. 16,25,26; Eph. 1:4).
If you still don't understand this, try this: completely take Paul out of your Bible (visually, not literally!). Take every mention of him in Acts away. Take Romans through Philemon away. Now, re-read your Bible. You will see an unbroken line of prophecy, from Genesis through Revelation. Prophecy concerning ISRAEL. When Peter stood up on Pentecost and gave his passionate plea, who was he preaching to? Israel. Read Acts 2 again and see. The Bible is 3/4 prophecy. concerning ISRAEL and God. The promises, covenants, prophets, kingdom promises, and setting up His kingdom on earth, in Jerusalem.
The other 1/4 is about a mystery, a secret, hid in God, that the prophets knew nothing about, Peter and the 11 knew nothing about (read Acts 2 again if necessary), and satan knew nothing about. The CHURCH THE BODY OF CHRIST. It has a definite BEGINNING, a MIDDLE (the building of it, how to get in it, what to do once you're in it, etc.), and an END (the RAPTURE of the Body of Christ). When Christ saved Saul, changed his name to Paul, and sent HIM forth to proclaim this MYSTERY, with all its revelations that the risen Christ gave to him, that was the BEGINNING. This is what Romans through Philemon is ALL about.
I hope you can see the differences. It makes Bible study much more enjoyable and understanding when you see those differences CLEARLY. 2 Tim. 2:15 seems quaint. It is the POWERHOUSE of Scripture.
One rightly divides God's word of truth. The other one doesn't.
I have read parts 1 and 2. I see where he gets his views, but I just don't see his interpretation superseding Jesus's own words in the gospel. I will read the rest of it later.
Okay this is one of signs of the apocalypse. you and I are complete agreement on two things.
Don’t know where to start!
First, Paul called for a Falling away, not a revival.
We will not go through any of the wrath, that is for certain, because the wrath cannot begin until the tribulation is over, that is what Rev. 15 says plainly.
The tribulation of the saints by Satan will be ended by the first resurrection. Yeshua said that, and Paul repeated it.
The reason that Yehova instituted his feasts for his elect was so that they would always be educated as to his scheduled events, each of which is prophesied by one of his feasts. If you read Romans carefully, you will see that that is the reason why the Jews had to be “blinded in part.” They had to continue the feasts so that the gentile believers would have the opportunity to learn them too.
Every one of Yehova’s major events has occurred on a feast date, and every one of his future events will also occur on its prophesied feast day.
If you don’t know the feasts, you have little hope of understanding the prophecies of the Revelation, especially getting them in order in your mind.
Purim is the key to the beginning of the tribulation. Haman was the early predecessor of the antichrist, and Esther’s union with the Persian king foretells our union with Yeshua.
1290 days after the antichrist stands on the mercy seat of the Ark we will be caught up to be with Yeshua on the sea of fire and glass (can you play a harp?). That is the surest thing in our future.
As long as you keep on misunderstanding what Paul meant WRT rightly dividing the word of TRUTH, and looking for something to divide, rather than seeing that he meant dividing Yeshua’s truth from the false Yeshuas, you will have a big hill to climb. Just look closely at the context of 2Timothy ch 2. He was guiding him away from false teaching.
We disagree but it is not salvation-threatening.
I hold to dispensational theology which is why I see the rapture coming at a different time than you do.
http://www.gotquestions.org/dispensationalism.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/seven-dispensations.html
We are currently in the Church Age/Age of Grace...Pentecost to Rapture.
Excerpt:
The sixth dispensation, the one in which we now live, is the Dispensation of Grace. It began with the New Covenant in Christ’s blood (Luke 22:20). This “Age of Grace” or “Church Age” occurs between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9:24. It starts with the death of Christ and ends with the Rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 4). This dispensation is worldwide and includes both Jews and the Gentiles. Man’s responsibility during the Dispensation of Grace is to believe in Jesus, the Son of God (John 3:18). In this dispensation the Holy Spirit indwells believers as the Comforter (John 14:16-26). This dispensation has lasted for over 2,000 years, and no one knows when it will end. We do know that it will end with the Rapture of all born-again believers from the earth to go to heaven with Christ. Following the Rapture will be the judgments of God lasting for seven years.
The seventh dispensation is called the Millennial Kingdom of Christ and will last for 1,000 years as Christ Himself rules on earth. This Kingdom will fulfill the prophecy to the Jewish nation that Christ will return and be their King. The only people allowed to enter the Kingdom are the born-again believers from the Age of Grace and righteous survivors of the seven years of tribulation. No unsaved person is allowed access into this kingdom. Satan is bound during the 1,000 years. This period ends with the final judgment (Revelation 20:11-14). The old world is destroyed by fire, and the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21 and 22 will begin.
Well, Paul’s words are the words of Jesus, as Paul was instructed by the risen Jesus.
Galatians 1:11-18
New International Version (NIV)
Paul Called by God
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.
18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas[a] and stayed with him fifteen days.
Also, I hold to dispensational theology and that is why I see the rapture coming at a different time than you and editor surveyor do. See my post to him.
>> “Read Acts, Chapter 2. You will see clearly that Peter was speaking of the last days. It would be a time of a great revival when all Israel will be saved” <<
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Do you have a roster of Israel?
Most of Israel will be saved because they have believed him all of their lives. Israel is spread out throughout all of the nations, and mostly they are already worshiping Yeshua. The problem is, from the POV that you present, they don’t presently know that they are Israel. They will find out when the time comes, and my suspicion is that it will be as we are standing on the sea of fire and glass.
Peter didn’t call for a revival, as like a Billy Graham crusade, he simply stated that Yeshua’s sheep would prophesy and dream dreams. I don’t know where this revival idea came from, but there you have an opportunity to “rightly divide the word of truth.” Such a revival is in conflict with all of the epistles, including Peter’s.
>> “I hold to dispensational theology which is why I see the rapture coming at a different time than you do.” <<
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OK, but dispensational theories have never been able to point to a scripture that marks a pre-trib rapture; it’s just not there. Both the Calvinists and the dispensationists look for two separate covenants, but that idea is nowhere to be found in scripture. Yeshua RENEWED his covenant, and all that are in his renewed covenant are to be resurrected at Yom Teruah. There will not be two separate resurrections unto life.
So then if all Christians are taken out of the world at the end of the tribulation who populates the world during the millennium since we know that all those who didn’t believe were sent to hell. That leaves nobody on earth.
Chapter 6 covers ALL TIME!
The Revelation was of what was, what is, and what shall be.
>> “since we know that all those who didn’t believe were sent to hell. That leaves nobody on earth.” <<
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That does not happen until the end of the millennium. That is the white throne judgement. The two are separated by 1,000 years.
“Most Christians do not study the Torah or the Feasts. They cannot understand how the Feasts tell of the coming of Messiah and the end of times.”
I believe that there is a lot of good prophetic truth built into the feasts of the Lord, but many “teachers” use them to start making predictions about dates and such. Joseph Goode from Hatikva Ministries is a prime example. He taught for years that Christ would take get the church on the Day of Atonement in the year 2000. It didn’t happen.
I am not against the use of those feasts in study (I have studied them way more than most Christians), but to just throw them out with no real meat on them does not lend any real weight to one’s mastery of the bible.
That’s at the end of the tribulation when He comes to defeat the armies at Armageddon. That is not at the rapture. In the rapture we meet Him in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
His feet never touch the earth like they will in His return to set up the millennium. At the end of the Tribulation we come back with Him.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
I don’t know what organization or entity your getting you information from regarding the end times but it certainly doesn’t line up with scripture.
No, it doesn’t. Scripture teaches that the body of Christ is no where on earth during the seven year tribulation having been taken off the earth and God again turns to dealing with Israel exclusively for the final seven years of the 490 years prophesied to them.
Its at the end of the trib, all right, but is what he described for his gathering of his saints in the air.
The two events are two sabbaths apart in the seventh Biblical month. The first is Yom Teruah (Trumpets), and the second is Sukkot (Tabernacles).
I think it is okay if we disagree on this as it is not pertinent to our salvation. Sounds as if you hold to post-trib theology.
Here is a book that explains all the different views. Perhaps it will help more than I have.
Description: Dispensationalism continues to provoke heated debate within the Christian world. Highly acclaimed theologian Dr. Charles C. Ryrie addresses this crucial issue from the perspective of classic dispensationalism. He confronts the views of covenant theology, historical premillennialism, ultradispensationalism, and, in this revised edition, the increasingly popular progressive dispensationalism. In his best-selling book Dispensationalism Today, written more than thirty years ago, Dr. Ryrie made this complex subject more understandable for thousands worldwide. This revised and expanded version of that book will prove to be an invaluable reference tool for your library.
And here is a quote that sums it up best from the link below.
http://www.intouch.org/you/article-archive/content/topic/going_deeper_the_rapture
“In his book What You Should Know About the Rapture, Dr. Charles Ryrie compares these two theories concerning the Rapture. But he also asks a very important question for anyone who is about to study the end times. He asks, “Does it really make any difference when the Lord will come? Is it not His coming that is important? If His coming should be pretribulational, then we will praise Him for the fact that we missed that terrible time. If it is posttribulational, then we will gladly suffer for His sake. Either way, we still have the blessed hope of His coming.”
>> “No, it doesn’t.” <<
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The scriptures have been posted, and they are quite plain to read. No question is left to the imagination. The resurrection defines the end of the tribulation. That is because the angels are prevented from pouring out the wrath which ends Satan’s tribulation, until the resurrection is completed.
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