Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

When Were Joseph and Mary Married?
Catholic Answers ^ | September 20, 2013 | Tim Staples

Posted on 09/21/2013 3:07:58 PM PDT by NYer

When the Archangel Gabriel visited Mary and declared unto her that she was called to be the Mother of God, as we see recorded in Luke 1, her response would become the cause of the spilling of a whole lot of ink over the centuries: “How shall this happen, since I know not man?” (v. 34, Douay Rheims, Confraternity Edition).

For Catholics this is an indication of Mary’s vow of perpetual virginity. It’s really quite simple. If Mary and Joseph were just an ordinary couple embarking on a normal married life together, there would be no reason to ask the question. Mary would have known very well how it could be that the angel was saying she would have a baby. As St. Augustine said it:

Had she intended to know man, she would not have been amazed. Her amazement is a sign of the vow (Sermon 225, 2).

But Protestants do not see it as quite so simple. Reformed Apologist James White gives us an example of the most common objection to our “Catholic” view of this text:

Nothing about a vow is mentioned in Scripture. Mary’s response to the angel was based upon the fact that it was obvious that the angel was speaking about an immediate conception, and since Mary was at that time only engaged to Joseph, but not married, at that time she could not possibly conceive in a natural manner, since she did not “know a man” (Mary—Another Redeemer? p. 31.).

Among the errors in just these two sentences (I counted four), there are two that stand out for our purpose here.

Error #1: Mr. White claims Mary was engaged to St. Joseph.

There was no such thing as engagement (as it is understood in modern Western culture) in ancient Israel. The text says Mary was “betrothed” or “espoused” (Gr.—emnesteumene), not engaged. Betrothal, in ancient Israel, would be akin to the ratification of a marriage (when a couple exchanges vows in the presence of an official witness of the Church) in Catholic theology. That ratified marriage is then consummated—in the normal course—on the couple’s wedding night. So when Luke 1:27 says Mary was betrothed, it means they were already married at the time of the annunciation. If this were an ordinary marriage, St. Joseph would then have had a husband’s right to the marriage bed—the consummation.

This simple truth proves devastating to Mr. White’s (and the Protestant's) argument. If Joseph and Mary were married—and they were—and they were planning the normal course, Mary would have known full and well how she could and would have a baby. As St. Augustine said, the question reveals the fact that this was not just your average, ordinary marriage. They were not planning to consummate their union.

Betrothed = Married?

For those who are not convinced “betrothed” equals “married” for Mary and Joseph; fortunately, the Bible makes this quite clear. If we move forward in time from the “annunciation” of Luke 1 to Matthew 1 and St. Joseph’s discovery of Mary’s pregnancy, we find Matthew 1:18 clearly stating Mary and Joseph were still “betrothed.” Yet, when Joseph found out Mary was “with child,” he determined he would “send her away privately” (vs. 19). The Greek verb translated in the RSVCE to send away is apolusai, which means divorce. Why would Joseph have to divorce Mary if they were only engaged?

Further, the angel then tells Joseph:

Do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit . . . When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife (vss. 20-24).

Notice, Joseph took Mary “his wife,” indicating both St. Matthew and an archangel considered this couple married even though they were said to be “betrothed.” “Betrothed” is obviously much more than “engaged.”

Moreover, months later we find Joseph and Mary travelling together to Bethlehem to be enrolled as a family according to the decree of Caesar Augustus, just before Jesus would be born. They were obviously married; yet, even then, they were still said to be “betrothed” (see Luke 2:5).

So let's recap what have we have uncovered. First, Joseph had already taken his espoused “wife” into his home and was caring for her. Second, Scripture reveals him to be her legal husband and to have travelled with Mary to be enrolled with her as a lawfully wedded couple and family. Third, she was called St. Joseph’s “wife” by the angel of the Lord… and yet, they were still referred to as betrothed.

Referring to Mary and Joseph as “engaged” in the face of all of this evidence would be like calling a modern couple at their wedding reception “engaged” because they have yet to consummate their marriage.

Once the fact that Mary and Joseph were already married at the time of the annunciation is understood, Mary’s “How shall this happen…” comes more into focus. Think about it: If you were a woman who had just been married (your marriage was “ratified,” but not consummated) and someone at your reception said—or “prophesied”—that you were going to have a baby—that would not really be all that much of a surprise. That is the normal course of events. You marry, consummate the union, and babies come along. You certainly would not ask the question, “Gee, how is this going to happen?” It is in this context of Mary having been betrothed, then, that her question does not make sense… unless, of course, you understand she had a vow of virginity. Then, it makes perfect sense.

Error #2: Mr. White claimed, “…it was obvious that the angel was speaking about an immediate conception.” And, closely related to this, Mr. White then claimed Mary asked the question, "How shall this happen...?" because she knew "at that time she could not conceive in a natural manner?"

Really? It was obvious?

There is not a single word in this text or anywhere else in Scripture that indicates Mary knew her conception was going to be immediate and via supernatural means. That’s why she asked the question, "How shall this happen...?" It appears she did not know the answer. How could she? Why would it ever enter into her mind? There would be no way apart from a revelation from God that she could have known. And most importantly, according to the text, the angel did not reveal the fact that Mary would conceive immediately and supernaturally until after Mary asked the question.

But let's suppose Mary was "engaged" as Mr. White claims. There would be even less reason to believe the conception would be immediate and somehow supernatural then there would be if Mary had a vow of virginity (though there’s really no reason to think this in either scenario). An "engaged" woman would have naturally assumed that when she and St. Joseph would later consummate their marriage, they could expect a very special surprise from God. They were going to conceive the Messiah. There would be no reason to think anything else. And there would be no reason to ask the question.

One final thought: When Mary asked the question, "How shall this happen, since I do not know man," the verb to be (Gr.-estai) is in the future tense. There is nothing here that would indicate she was thinking of the immediate. The future tense here most likely refers to… the future. The question was not how she could conceive immediately. The question was how she could conceive ever. The angel answered that question for her.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: sectarianturmoil
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120121-135 next last
To: roamer_1
the 12 sons of Abraham Jacob

Duh.

101 posted on 09/22/2013 1:55:55 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 99 | View Replies]

To: madison10
Then why do we have a Holy Family?

Feast of the Holy Family of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph
Recovering God’s Plan for Marriage and Family: A Sermon on the Feast of the Holy Family

“Why were you looking for me?" (On the Feast of The Holy Family)
U.S. Postal Service Issues Holy Family Forever Stamp
On Prayer in the Life of the Holy Family
The Holy Family - held together by Love through all their problems [Ecumenical]
Feast of the Holy Family: The Christian Family is a Domestic Church
Chesterton on "The Human Family and the Holy Family"
Joseph, Mary and Jesus: A Model Family
ADVICE TO PARENTS by Saint Alphonsus Liguori (1696-1787)
The Holy Family
St. Joseph as Head of the Holy Family (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)

Feast of the Holy Family
Feast of the Holy Family (Dom Guéranger OSB)
The Feast of the Holy Family
The Holy Family vs. The Holy Innocents: A Christmas season reflection [Catholic Caucus]
Vatican creche to place Holy Family in Joseph's carpentry workshop
The Redemption and Protection of the Family [Feast of the Holy Family]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1606480/posts
Unraveling Jesus' mystery years in Egypt
Gaudi’s Church of the Holy Family to be ready for worship in 2008
Imitating the Holy Family; Four Traits that Make It Possible
Lots of Graphics: Post your favorite image of the St. Mary and Child, the Holy Family...

102 posted on 09/22/2013 1:57:23 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

To: boatbums

Oh well....let them yap or yip - God loves the Catholics as much as He does any of us who aren’t of that particular faith. However, he also wants people to come to the knowledge of the truth and if we step on a few toes in proclaiming the truth - so be it. While I don’t believe the Catholics are 100% wrong in all they teach and believe - there are many areas where they are in error.


103 posted on 09/22/2013 2:54:53 PM PDT by Catsrus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: roamer_1

But they *need* it to be true, lest the entire ecosystem of mariology should crumble into nothing, and they can’t have that.


I can plainly understand either side believing the way they do, but i can not understand why any one would build Church doctrine on anything other than what can plainly be proven.

I believe Mary only had one child, but perpetual virgin? i have no idea and its none of my business.

I have no problem with some one believing that the brothers of Jesus was Marys sons but don,t believe it should become Church doctrine.

I do not believe in building Church doctrine around the most popular assumptions because regardless of how sensible it may seem it could be wrong.

If it is something that is a matter of life or death then i would look at it a little different but which ever side is right on this issue would not change anything even if it could be proven beyond doubt.


104 posted on 09/22/2013 3:03:51 PM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 99 | View Replies]

To: Heart-Rest

Yes, I am a aware of the other less common usages, but with the copius reference to Jesus’ brothers (and sisters), one has to have an agenda to see it other than for what the authors of gospels, Paul and others (even Christ) state in plain greek.

Believe what you will, that is your freedom.

However, the one thing that must be common is that Christ is the Savior, and by and through Him, (His once for all acceptance of our sin and His being punished by God the Father even to death, and then being raised up again, forever paying the price of all man’s sin) there is no other way to find salvation and eternal life....

Best, & Peace.


105 posted on 09/22/2013 3:29:24 PM PDT by Manly Warrior (US ARMY (Ret), "No Free Lunches for the Dogs of War")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

But Luther, Zwingli and Calvin did!! Want to check again on these threads?


I believe that Mary had only one child which is Jesus, the only evidence i have of that is the lack of the mentioning of Mary being the mother of any of Jesus,s brethren.

And also the fact that John gave his mother to John as his mother and her son, that alone would be absurd if Mary had other children who would have been old enough to care for their mother.

There are also scripture that indicate to me that the brothers may have been older instead of younger.


John 7
1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

2 Now the Jew’s feast of tabernacles was at hand.

3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.a you


It appears to me they were goading Jesus, an older half brother or cousin would be much more able to do that than a younger one, Jesus would most likely be a hero to some of his younger brothers if he had any younger brothers.


106 posted on 09/22/2013 3:46:15 PM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 100 | View Replies]

To: ravenwolf
I believe Mary only had one child, but perpetual virgin? i have no idea and its none of my business.
I have no problem with some one believing that the brothers of Jesus was Marys sons but don,t believe it should become Church doctrine.

I wonder why one might believe that Mary only had one child. What purpose does it serve, when the Bible specifies brothers? And as far as inheritance goes (the legal aspect of his right to the line of David through his apparent father), doesn't his recognized right and familial authority become problematic if he was not the eldest son? Why aren't his brothers mentioned until later in the tale? Did they ALL go down to Egypt? Why weren't the elder sons mentioned on the trip to Bethlehem? There is no mention of anyone other than Joseph and Mary on that trip... Wouldn't Joseph have to present all his sons for the census?

I don't think the protestants hold it to be doctrine (or necessary) outside of the obvious defenses against the nearly absurd construction of the papists in their zeal to manufacture the conditions for the eternal virgin. It is incidental to belief, except in the bare fact that it follows nicely, and is thereby more reasonable to assert. Simple logic dictates.

I do not believe in building Church doctrine around the most popular assumptions because regardless of how sensible it may seem it could be wrong.

I can truly understand and encourage that statement.

If it is something that is a matter of life or death then i would look at it a little different but which ever side is right on this issue would not change anything even if it could be proven beyond doubt.

Oh, it would change everything if it fell against the papist way, which is why the Roman church is so adamant in their defenses. Without her eternal virginity and the magick surrounding it (see Ishtar, Isis), their goddess would fall to a position of merely mortal status. From the Protestant position, you are right, as it would change little if it were proven the other way, as Protestants appeal strictly to an higher authority anyway...

107 posted on 09/22/2013 3:54:03 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 104 | View Replies]

To: ravenwolf; roamer_1
I have no problem with some one believing that the brothers of Jesus was Marys sons but don,t believe it should become Church doctrine. I do not believe in building Church doctrine around the most popular assumptions because regardless of how sensible it may seem it could be wrong. If it is something that is a matter of life or death then i would look at it a little different but which ever side is right on this issue would not change anything even if it could be proven beyond doubt.

I think a valid question to ask Catholics about this point is, "If Mary can be shown to have had additional children with her husband, Joseph, after Jesus was born, would it effect their views about her and how would it?". In other words, how much a part of Mariology IS her perpetual virginity? If she can be shown to have had a normal, divinely-approved sexual relationship with her husband that produced other children, WHY would she be thought of or honored differently? How is the view of her changed?

108 posted on 09/22/2013 5:02:18 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 104 | View Replies]

To: NYer

That whole story stinks of fairy-tale.


109 posted on 09/22/2013 5:05:03 PM PDT by elkfersupper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
"If Mary can be shown to have had additional children with her husband, Joseph, after Jesus was born ...

Shown HOW? Delivery-room home videos?

110 posted on 09/22/2013 6:37:39 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Prioritize!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 108 | View Replies]

To: boatbums

WHY would she be thought of or honored differently? How is the view of her changed?


I see the point, i can,t see how it would make any difference.


111 posted on 09/22/2013 7:01:52 PM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 108 | View Replies]

To: ravenwolf
I pray we all read God's word to that very end!

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. – Hebrews 4:12

God's Name is I AM.

112 posted on 09/22/2013 7:24:45 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 98 | View Replies]

To: roamer_1

Why aren’t his brothers mentioned until later in the tale? Did they ALL go down to Egypt? Why weren’t the elder sons mentioned on the trip to Bethlehem? There is no mention of anyone other than Joseph and Mary on that trip... Wouldn’t Joseph have to present all his sons for the census?


You make a good point on that one, but it may be as others believe, they may have been cousins as no one is mentioned as the sons of Joesph.

I have a daughter who is familiar with the Jewish religion, in fact is a Jew and speaks Hebrew, she leans in favor of the same view you have but says she don,t know.


as Protestants appeal strictly to an higher authority anyway...

If revelation 17 is saying what i think it does the Protestants will be in the same pickle jar as the Catholics.

I am not trying to pick on Churches,( maybe religion ) but just saying the way it looks to me, in fact i some times wish i had not even read revelation.


113 posted on 09/22/2013 7:29:27 PM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 107 | View Replies]

To: GreyFriar

The important part is that Mary and Joseph BOTH received messages from God via angels, and believed and obeyed.


114 posted on 09/22/2013 7:33:19 PM PDT by zot
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 88 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl

I pray we all read God’s word to that very end!


Yes, he knows the hearts of the minds and he understands the struggles between the heart and body some one may have that another don,t have.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


115 posted on 09/22/2013 8:02:07 PM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies]

To: ravenwolf

So very true, dear ravenwolf! Thank you for your insights and that beautiful Scripture!


116 posted on 09/22/2013 8:20:38 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 115 | View Replies]

To: ravenwolf
You make a good point on that one, but it may be as others believe, they may have been cousins as no one is mentioned as the sons of Joesph.

What do you do with Jesus' sisters???

117 posted on 09/22/2013 8:38:39 PM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | View Replies]

To: Iscool

What do you do with Jesus’ sisters???


I give up, what?


118 posted on 09/22/2013 10:04:48 PM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 117 | View Replies]

To: ravenwolf; roamer_1
You make a good point on that one, but it may be as others believe, they may have been cousins as no one is mentioned as the sons of Joesph.

He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?". (Matt. 13:54-56)

"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him. Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household.". (Mark 6:3,4)

119 posted on 09/22/2013 10:48:28 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | View Replies]

To: Tax-chick
"If Mary can be shown to have had additional children with her husband, Joseph, after Jesus was born ...

Shown HOW? Delivery-room home videos?

Really doesn't matter how, the question was asked IF it can be shown Mary had other children after Jesus was born, with her husband Joseph, would or should it affect how she is honored and blessed by those who venerate her. In other words, what weight does Mary being a "perpetual" virgin have on why she is viewed as she is by Catholics, for example?

120 posted on 09/22/2013 10:54:52 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 110 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120121-135 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson