Posted on 09/15/2013 1:37:28 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
(This was originally shared here on AnsweringProtestants.com, as part of a longer post.)
There is nothing wrong with asking the heavenly saints to pray for us.
Many Protestants argue that asking the saints to pray for us is “unbiblical,” while throwing around verses like 1 Timothy 2:5. But they are incorrect.
1 Timothy 2:5 — the infamous “one mediator between God and men” verse — refers to salvation, not prayer. The verse reminds us that it is only because of the graces found through Christ (God Himself) that we are able to have any real relationship with God and reach Heaven. It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself.
I was raised in several Protestant denominations. They all placed a major emphasis on Christians praying for each other — which is encouraged in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and other passages. I would contend that a saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would.
To put that another way, if someone asked you to do something for them, would you not be more likely to help them if they were your best friend, as opposed to a complete stranger? Of course, you may very well be willing to do something for a complete stranger, but you would probably be more willing to do something for your best friend.
And there is evidence in the Bible of the saints praying to God.
“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” – Revelation 8:3-4
The word for “saints” in that passage comes from the Greek word hagios. Thayer’s New Testament Greek-English Lexicon says that the best definition of hagios is “most holy thing, a saint”. This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that “saints” in this context can only refer to people on earth.
Now, what would the saints be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us. And because they are praying for us anyway, how could it be wrong to ask them to pray for us about something specific? It is like interacting with a DJ at an event. He’s playing music anyway, so what is the harm in asking him to play your favorite song?
Here’s my Scripture-based defense of the practice that should answer most Protestant objections:
Matthew 17:3-4 & Luke 9:28-31.
Moses and Elijah (who are clearly heavenly saints, not “saints” in the way Paul would sometimes use the word) are with Christ during the Transfiguration.
Revelation 6:9-11.
The martyrs can talk to God.
From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God.
Luke 15:10.
The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events.
1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16.
It is good for Christians to pray for one another.
Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us), why wouldn’t they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another?
Revelation 21:27.
Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven.
Psalm 66:18 & James 5:16.
God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective.
Because the saints have reached perfection (they are in Heaven), their prayers are more effective than the prayers of those that are less righteous, so that’s why one might ask them to pray instead of asking another Christian on earth or simply doing it themselves.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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I never realized there were people who actually desired to be a saint. I know that once we are saved we are all saints. But I don’t know anyone who said “I’m thinking of becoming a saint, what do you think?”Yes, some folks desire to be saints. That's how they become so holy.
Leon Bloy [who wanted dearly to become a saint] once wrote, “The only real sadness, the only real failure, the only great tragedy in life, is not to become a saint.”
lol! no really. This cannot be true..
lol! no really. This cannot be true..lol! Expound please! :)
BWHAHAHAHA!!! On WHAT?!?!!
On the “this” portion of your comment. What cannot be true?
mlizzy, (drying tears of laughter), words fail me at the thought of someone setting out to be a saint. (and you KNOW how hard it is for ME to not have the words to say!). A person cannot make a check-list of “saint supplies and goals”. Well, a person who is not wearing tin-foil and howling at small children, that is..C’mon, I love a good story. Tell me more, please, about “saint school”. :)
Typical Catholic talking point, mlizzy, that one must suffer terribly to become more godly.
Did I say “allow”? No, I did not. I said He will not “cause” your pain and He will not “leave” you in it.
Let me clarify.....He will not leave you “alone” in it.
I thought about adding the “alone” right before I hit post but did not. I assumed you would know exactly what I meant, but I forget that the mindset is completely different in Catholicism and I should never assume you will know my meaning unless I clearly spell it out.
Isaiah 43:2 ESV
When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you.
As for allow, we agree He does allow pain but when He does it always has a purpose. We know Him by name the moment we are born again and filled with the Spirit. He does not allow one to suffer just for the sake of suffering. His purpose is to teach us thru the suffering and He promises that it will not last forever.
1 Peter 5:10 ESV
And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.
Psalm 34:19 ESV
Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them all.
Jeremiah 29:11 ESV
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
2 Corinthians 4:17 ESV
For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison.
Romans 8:28 ESV
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
You mentioned Catholicism was very difficult to learn, or words to that effect. You don’t learn a relationship with Jesus...you learn a religion. I believe you believe you do have this relationship with Jesus, but all I have heard you talk about is Catholic tradition and dogma. What happened before you became Catholic? I would like to know about the experience you had prior if you will share it.
Best,
jodyel
The New Testament has many books that were obviously written much later... including all of Paul’s Epistles that were written between 50-66 A.D.
How does Paul write to the Church in Corinth (among other places) if the Church needed the Canon of the New Testament in order to exist?
There is a fundamental chronological flaw in the original argument.
I’m crushed...and just when I thought it was safe to laugh at the words of an RC. I shoulda’ known better....;)
What happened before you became Catholic? I would like to know about the experience you had prior if you will share it.Same ol', same ol'; an empty existence filled with sin.
I’m crushed...and just when I thought it was safe to laugh at the words of an RC. I shoulda’ known better....;)It's not ME you're laughing at smvoice. That's where the problem lies...
No, it’s you, mlizzy. It’s you.
Did I not tell you to go on your way, verga, and trouble me no more? In case you did not hear me the first time, I will say it again. Go away and trouble me no more.
That said, some things being debated here are trivial and this is one of them. Anyone who is born again knows its meaning and it should not have to be debated. It would seem Catholics do not know the meaning and if they do not they are free to investigate on their own.
I have given the meaning of this term and I stand by it. I have also cited an article giving the original Aramaic words for the term born again. And after all that, some still want to debate it. If you or others don’t get it, then I suggest you do some research on it. Google is your friend after all. I will not debate anyone down to the nth meaning of a word or phrase.
The kicker here though is that without being born again, you will not understand it. When guided by the Spirit, one will understand the meaning of what one is reading or studying in Scripture. When one is not born again, one will need to debate and discuss and pick apart every letter and syllable to fit their belief system....I’ve no need to do that.
Once you are born again of the Spirit, you will know it. There is no doubt and the silly squabbling over this phrase or that phrase is immediately rendered moot. So the best possible answer I can give you is to ask God to come and live in your heart and to fill you with the Holy Spirit. That is being born again. Until that happens, you will keep on as you are now.
Goodbye,
jodyel
No, it’s you, mlizzy. It’s you.That's not nize, smvoice...
what’s that? some kind of RCC voodoo curse picture that is pulled out when duress threatens? Quick, light a candle and pray for me. Oh wait, you’re the one who sent the picture...;)
“What do you think you “have” over and above what I have as a Catholic?”
The Holy Spirit living inside of me.
“Why do you assume I haven’t chosen only Him?”
Because of your devotion to persons and things that have nothing to do with Him.
I read no Catholic literature whatsoever, mlizzy. I’ve no need. The Spirit guides my understanding and I am in no doubt as to what Catholicism is. I will never respect false doctrine or a false religion. I stand for Christ and Christ alone.
I speak the truth guided by the Holy Spirit, then the Lord steps in and reveals it to be truth at a time and place of His choosing. Or not as He wills. All I need do is tell the truth of the Spirit.
I would submit that those sitting in the pews of the Catholic church are not desperate enough yet to come out of her and seek the Living God. And they may never be. But I have done what I am called to do and told the truth. God is the one who will show the truth of my words. As I said earlier, is one so desperate to know Jesus that they will lay all down? Church, dogma, religion, family, friends, etc. If not, then they are not desperate enough.
God bless,
jodyel
The picture? And yes, all the saints pray for everyone. Might even be a FReeper saint or two up there praying as well... :)
Uh, huh.
OK. Maybe you can be the first Catholic to answer these questions.
Just what are those traditions Paul was referring to that he handed down that we are to keep that were not included in Scripture?
How do you know?
How do you know they’re from the apostles, Paul in particular?
How do you know they’ve been passed down faithfully?
What is your source for verifying all of the above?
Please provide the sources for verification purposes.
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