Posted on 09/15/2013 1:37:28 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
(This was originally shared here on AnsweringProtestants.com, as part of a longer post.)
There is nothing wrong with asking the heavenly saints to pray for us.
Many Protestants argue that asking the saints to pray for us is “unbiblical,” while throwing around verses like 1 Timothy 2:5. But they are incorrect.
1 Timothy 2:5 — the infamous “one mediator between God and men” verse — refers to salvation, not prayer. The verse reminds us that it is only because of the graces found through Christ (God Himself) that we are able to have any real relationship with God and reach Heaven. It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself.
I was raised in several Protestant denominations. They all placed a major emphasis on Christians praying for each other — which is encouraged in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and other passages. I would contend that a saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would.
To put that another way, if someone asked you to do something for them, would you not be more likely to help them if they were your best friend, as opposed to a complete stranger? Of course, you may very well be willing to do something for a complete stranger, but you would probably be more willing to do something for your best friend.
And there is evidence in the Bible of the saints praying to God.
“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” – Revelation 8:3-4
The word for “saints” in that passage comes from the Greek word hagios. Thayer’s New Testament Greek-English Lexicon says that the best definition of hagios is “most holy thing, a saint”. This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that “saints” in this context can only refer to people on earth.
Now, what would the saints be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us. And because they are praying for us anyway, how could it be wrong to ask them to pray for us about something specific? It is like interacting with a DJ at an event. He’s playing music anyway, so what is the harm in asking him to play your favorite song?
Here’s my Scripture-based defense of the practice that should answer most Protestant objections:
Matthew 17:3-4 & Luke 9:28-31.
Moses and Elijah (who are clearly heavenly saints, not “saints” in the way Paul would sometimes use the word) are with Christ during the Transfiguration.
Revelation 6:9-11.
The martyrs can talk to God.
From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God.
Luke 15:10.
The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events.
1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16.
It is good for Christians to pray for one another.
Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us), why wouldn’t they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another?
Revelation 21:27.
Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven.
Psalm 66:18 & James 5:16.
God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective.
Because the saints have reached perfection (they are in Heaven), their prayers are more effective than the prayers of those that are less righteous, so that’s why one might ask them to pray instead of asking another Christian on earth or simply doing it themselves.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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That’s just it.....a relationship with Jesus is not one of pain. Yes, you will have pain in this life but He will not cause it and He will not leave you in it.
I have definitely known pain of the emotional and spiritual variety and that was in fact what drove me to call on His name.
I have never regretted it. I would not trade the Holy Spirit living inside of me for anything.
Well, I know exactly what born again means as Jesus taught it even if Nicodemus did not.
I have absolutely no problem using that term in regards to spiritual rebirth and being filled with the Spirit.
So you guys can debate the two terms all you like, but it is not important to me.
It takes my focus off Jesus and telling others about Him.
God bless,
jodyel
I have absolutely no problem using that term in regards to spiritual rebirth and being filled with the Spirit.
So you guys can debate the two terms all you like, but it is not important to me.
It takes my focus off Jesus and telling others about Him.
God bless,
jodyel
When I speak about someone that I really care about. I want to do it with as much precision and accuracy as possible. To do any less is to do them a dis service.
Of course, using Catholic “logic” if it takes the Catholic church to perform a valid marriage, then ANYONE not married by the Catholic church does not have a valid marriage.
That means EVERYONE outside of those married by the Catholic church are according to them, living in sin.
That means EVERYONE outside of those married by the Catholic church are according to them, living in sin.
This is completely wrong, and as a former Catholic you should know better.
>> “In order to follow Luther you have to insist that Christ’s church taught in error for over a 1000 years.” <<
.
This is typical of the broad error of most catholics.
The real church has always been there, in spite of the brutality of Constintine’s ‘church.’
It never owned any property (in keeping with Stephen’s revelation that Yehova doesn’t live in temples made with hands) It was known only as “The Way,” and accepted no traditions not written in Yahova’s word. It existed from the moment that Yeshua paid the price of sin, had no hierarchy but the word and the Holy Spirit, and sought to follow Yeshua’s commandments.
The So-called catholic church came centuries later, and had nothing but brutality to rely on, and forced membership on penalty of death.
Luther likely sensed the existence of the Way, but he did little better than Constantine at finding it.
That is pure speculation. You would also have to believe that the saints in heaven are also omnipresent. Do you?
Thanks for that. Amen
Thank you very much! I will pray for you, as well. :)
.
Absolutely correct!
When Yeshua told the parable of the Tares:
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
The word as in New Testament Scripture... developed over decades after Christ’s death.
It’s not like Saul/Paul was writing letters to Corinth in between making martyrs... the time line just doesn’t work.
Actually, the gospel of Matthew was in the British Isles within a few years of Yeshua’s ascention.
Two centuries + before Constantine created the catholic church
There has always been a separate, FALSE oral Tradition.
That is the point that Moses made in Dueteronomy, and Yeshua made in his Revelation.
Men love to speak for Yehova, but he has given that priviledge only to the prophets, and even then only when it is in full agreement with his written word.
The Old Testiment is what Yeshua quoted from extensively, always saying first “it is written.”
To declare that Paul said anything not found in the Old Testiment to his audience is false accusation.
Sola Scriptura is Yeshua’s firm rule:
Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Thank you. We need it... :)
Yes, you will have pain in this life but He will not cause it and He will not leave you in it.Ack! Pure rubbish. Christ "allows" all that happens on this earth. Who do you think is above Him? No one, right? As far as Jesus not leaving you in pain, well, it's true if you pray and pray and receive Him and pray, you might find joy in your sufferings, but that doesn't mean He will necessarily pull them away. It's in the fight we gain. It's through sorrow and pain... that we get to know Him by Name...
Not necessarily a lie, more likely a folk tale.
It’s not the suffering but rather the mentality that the suffering is some kind of barometer of how much God loves us...THAT is what is twisted.He loves us all it is true, and everyone suffers in one way or another anyway, but not everyone desires to be a saint; they do receive more suffering... and what's more, they joyfully take it, announcing "bring it on."
I never realized there were people who actually desired to be a saint. I know that once we are saved we are all saints. But I don’t know anyone who said “I’m thinking of becoming a saint, what do you think?”
I never realized there were people who actually desired to be a saint. I know that once we are saved we are all saints. But I don’t know anyone who said “I’m thinking of becoming a saint, what do you think?”Yes, some folks desire to be saints. That's how they become so holy.
Leon Bloy [who wanted dearly to become a saint] once wrote, “The only real sadness, the only real failure, the only great tragedy in life, is not to become a saint.”
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