It’s Biblical to Ask Saints to Pray for Us

Ignitum Today ^ | 15 September 2013 | Matthew Olson

[matthewrobertolson]

(This was originally shared here on AnsweringProtestants.com, as part of a longer post.)

There is nothing wrong with asking the heavenly saints to pray for us.

Many Protestants argue that asking the saints to pray for us is “unbiblical,” while throwing around verses like 1 Timothy 2:5. But they are incorrect.

1 Timothy 2:5 — the infamous “one mediator between God and men” verse — refers to salvation, not prayer. The verse reminds us that it is only because of the graces found through Christ (God Himself) that we are able to have any real relationship with God and reach Heaven. It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself.

I was raised in several Protestant denominations. They all placed a major emphasis on Christians praying for each other — which is encouraged in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and other passages. I would contend that a saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would.

To put that another way, if someone asked you to do something for them, would you not be more likely to help them if they were your best friend, as opposed to a complete stranger? Of course, you may very well be willing to do something for a complete stranger, but you would probably be more willing to do something for your best friend.

And there is evidence in the Bible of the saints praying to God.

“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” – Revelation 8:3-4

The word for “saints” in that passage comes from the Greek word hagios. Thayer’s New Testament Greek-English Lexicon says that the best definition of hagios is “most holy thing, a saint”. This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that “saints” in this context can only refer to people on earth.

Now, what would the saints be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us. And because they are praying for us anyway, how could it be wrong to ask them to pray for us about something specific? It is like interacting with a DJ at an event. He’s playing music anyway, so what is the harm in asking him to play your favorite song?

Here’s my Scripture-based defense of the practice that should answer most Protestant objections:

Matthew 17:3-4 & Luke 9:28-31.
Moses and Elijah (who are clearly heavenly saints, not “saints” in the way Paul would sometimes use the word) are with Christ during the Transfiguration.

Revelation 6:9-11.
The martyrs can talk to God.

From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God.

Luke 15:10.
The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events.

1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16.
It is good for Christians to pray for one another.

Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us), why wouldn’t they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another?

Revelation 21:27.
Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven.

Psalm 66:18 & James 5:16.
God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective.

Because the saints have reached perfection (they are in Heaven), their prayers are more effective than the prayers of those that are less righteous, so that’s why one might ask them to pray instead of asking another Christian on earth or simply doing it themselves.

(All verses are from the NASB translation.)

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[mlizzy]

Or do you want the comfort of your dogma instead of the living Christ?

Again your comment makes no sense to a Catholic. The Catholic Church provides the Living Christ every day through the Holy Mass (in fact, I'm getting ready to go right now:)). I sense a poetic-ness in your writings, though. Would this be correct? You might like portions of Fr. Mark's writings:

Prefer My company to every other companionship, the love of My Heart to the love of every other heart, and the sound of My voice in the silence of your soul to every other voice. Abide close to Me, seek Me before all else, put nothing whatsoever before My love for you and the love I have placed in your heart to love Me in return.

[mlizzy]

LOL! That's a great quote! :)

-lol- Thanks Matthew! I was right there when he said it (after a daily Mass), and I said, "Wow, where did that come from?"

By the way, several years later, we saw this same man at a daily Mass, but since that one sighting (or maybe there was two), we haven't seen him since.

[stonehouse01]

“... no one goes to the father except through me...”

This passage refers to salvation - no one is saved except through Jesus.

Saints are not dead mortals - they are living in heaven with God, because they were saved.

It is not Christian to refer to deceased saved Christians as dead because they are ALIVE in Christ Jesus.

[rwilson99]

Martin Luther saw to it that a number of books were removed from the canon of scripture that had been accepted for over 1000 years... What would you call him?

[rwilson99]

Using Protestant logic... We have no way of identifying who a Pastor is... Or what a genuine marriage is... All is subject to personal interpretation once the concept of authority is removed.

[Sloth]

Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us),

Um... I'm aware of earthly events, but that doesn't mean I can hear the words and thoughts of people all over the planet. That's an ability that requires God-like omniscience. Why would you expect that to be true of saints in Heaven?

[verga]

Born "from Above" Vs. "Again. The Greek word Anothon occurs exactly 12 times in 12 verses in the New Testament. The four words we are concerned with are Anothon which the Catholics contend means "From above" and the Fundies contend means again. The second word is Apanow, which means above/ over.

The third word is Palon- that really does mean again and Deuteron that means secondly. If the Protestants are correct when we look at each of these verses we should be able to substitute either word and have it make perfect sense. I have included several verses that use the word Palon to document the common use of that word. You will also notice that in John 3:4 that Nicodemus does not use either Palon or Anothon, but rather Deuteron, meaning secondly or second.

Matt 27:50 But Jesus cried out again (Palon) in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit.

Matt 27:51 And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top (Anthon) to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split.

Mark 15:38 The veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top (above anthon) to bottom.

Luke 1:3 I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew (From their source anthon), to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus,

John 3: 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above (Anthon)."

John 3: 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again (duetron secondly)? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?"

John 3:31 The one who comes from above (Anthon) is above (Anthon) all. The one who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of earthly things. But the one who comes from heaven (is above all).

John 19:11 Jesus answered (him), "You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above (Anthon). For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin."

John 19:23 When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his clothes and divided them into four shares, a share for each soldier. They also took his tunic, but the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from the top (Anthon) down.

Acts 26:5 They have known about me from the start (Anthon) From the first), if they are willing to testify, that I have lived my life as a Pharisee, the strictest party of our religion.

Galatians 4:9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again (Palon) Untranslated word Anthon (anew) to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again (Palon)?

James 1: 17 all good giving and every perfect gift is from above (Anthon), coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no alteration or shadow caused by change.

James 3: 15 Wisdom of this kind does not come down from above (Anthon) but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.

James 3: 17But the wisdom from above (Anthon) is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without inconstancy or insincerity.

All 12 verses with the Greek Translation Matt 27:50But Jesus cried out again (Palon) in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit. (Jesus did not cry out from above, he cried out a second time)

Mat 27:50 o de ihsouv palin kraxav fwnh megalh afhken to pneuma

Matt 27:51And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top (Anothon) to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split,(The veil was not torn "again" it was torn from top to bottom)

Mat 27:51kai idou to katapetasma tou naou esxisqh ap eiv duo apo anwqen ewv katw eiv duo kai h gh eseisqh kai ai petrai esxisqhsan

Mark 15:38 The veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top (above Anothon) to bottom. (See above, no pun intended)

Mar 15:38 kai to katapetasma tou naou esxisqh eiv duo ap apo anwqen ewv katw

Luke 1:3 I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew (From their source Anothon), to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus,(This is the only verse that you could conceivably substitute "Again", but the colloquial "From their source makes better sense)

Luke 1:3 edoxe edoxen kamoi parhkolouqhkoti anwqen pasin akribwv kaqexhv soi grayai kratiste qeofile

John 3: 3Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above (Anothon)."(Verse in contention, no comment required)

John 3:3 apekriqh o ihsouv kai eipen autw amhn amhn legw soi ean mh tiv gennhqh anwqen ou dunatai idein thn basileian tou qeou

John 3: 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again (duetron secondly)? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?" (Here is where the Prots really put their foot in it. Nicodemus never says again (Palon) he says Secondly (Deuteron)

John 3:4 legei prov auton o o nikodhmov pwv dunatai anqrwpov gennhqhnai gerwn wn mh dunatai eiv thn koilian thv mhtrov autou deuteron eiselqein kai gennhqhnai

John 3:31The one who comes from above (Anothon) is above (Apanow) all. The one who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of earthly things. But the one who comes from heaven (is above all).(Those that come" again" are "again" all, Makes no sense at all.)

Joh 3:31 o anwqen erxomenov epanw pantwn estin o wn ek thv ghv ek thv ghv estin kai ek thv ghv lalei o ek tou ouranou erxomenov epanw epanw pantwn estin estin

John 19:11Jesus answered (him), "You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above (Anothon). For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin." (Pilate was not given power again, he was given it from above, God allowed him to have power)

John 19:11 apekriqh autw o ihsouv ouk eixev exousian oudemian kat emou oudemian ei mh hn soi dedomenon soi anwqen dia touto o paradouv paradidouv me soi meizona amartian exei

John 19:23 When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his clothes and divided them into four shares, a share for each soldier. They also took his tunic, but the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from the top (Anothon) down. (The tunic was not woven again, it was woven from the top down)

John 19:23 oi oun stratiwtai ote estaurwsan ton ihsoun elabon ta imatia autou kai epoihsan tessara merh ekastw stratiwth merov kai ton xitwna hn de o xitwn arafov arrafov ek twn anwqen ufantov di olou

Acts 26:5 They have known about me from the start (Anothon, From the first), if they are willing to testify, that I have lived my life as a Pharisee, the strictest party of our religion. (They did not know about Paul "again" they new about him from the beginning)

Act 26:5 proginwskontev me anwqen ean qelwsi qelwsin marturein oti kata thn akribestathn airesin thv hmeterav qrhskeiav ezhsa farisaiov

Galatians 4:9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again (Palon) Untranslated word Anothon (anew) to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again (Palon)? (The phrase "from above" clearly does not fit here)

Gal 4:9 nun de gnontev qeon mallon de gnwsqentev upo qeou pwv epistrefete palin epi ta asqenh kai ptwxa stoixeia oiv palin anwqen douleuein qelete

James 1:17 all good giving and every perfect gift is from above (Anothon), coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no alteration or shadow caused by change. (Is the gift coming "again", no it is coming from God, who is "From above")

Jas 1:17 pasa dosiv agaqh kai pan dwrhma teleion anwqen estin katabainon apo tou patrov twn fwtwn par w ouk eni parallagh h trophv aposkiasma

James 3:15 Wisdom of this kind does not come down from above (Anothon) but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. (See Previous)

Jas 3:15 ouk estin auth h sofia anwqen katerxomenh alla all epigeiov yuxikh daimoniwdhv

James 3:17 But the wisdom from above (Anothon) is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without inconstancy or insincerity. (Again the wisdom is "from above", not "again")

Jas 3:17 h de anwqen sofia prwton men agnh estin epeita eirhnikh epieikhv eupeiqhv mesth eleouv kai karpwn agaqwn adiakritov kai anupokritov

Conclusion: The only reasonable definition of the word "Anthon" is "From above/ from the source or beginning", There is a perfectly good word for "again" but, neither Nicodemus, nor Jesus use that word, instead Nicodemus uses Deuteron. Nicodemus apparent confusion results from Jesus' use of the word "Born" not "From above" Anothon

[mlizzy]

Oh how I pray that God will burst in on you and reveal Himself in no uncertain terms to you, mlizzy!!

If Jesus reveals Himself anymore to me, I think I will burst with pain. But thank you; I understand your belief system somewhat as I was once a non-Catholic myself (for 33 years).

[driftdiver]

Those books were only accepted by some. Those books are not divinely inspired.

I would call him Luther. He did some good things and some bad things, like all but one man.

[driftdiver]

using Catholic logic I can pay for divorce and its not a divorce.

[roamer_1]

All else is of men.

I read that as 'All else is of meh.'

I thought, "What a perfectly lovely mis-pelling!" But then I hit the 'down arrow' and found out the top of the 'h' was a chunk of something stuck to my laptop monitor... And your statement became merely accurate. ; )

@ALL:

Good morning everybody!

[mlizzy]

Now, what would the saints be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us. And because they are praying for us anyway, how could it be wrong to ask them to pray for us about something specific?...

Very good, Matthew. I like this and it makes perfect sense.

I see, also, that you are "privately discerning." Well, it's not private anymore. :) I'll be praying for you daily. Praying for priests (or discernment) is at the top of my list right after making sure I pray for my family and for Life.

[roamer_1]

And yet Our Lord gave us His Apostles, and His Church who then gave us the Bible.

Funny that, how more than half of the Bible was compiled long before anything you might consider a 'church' was even around.

[GeronL]

The “Saints”, who says they are saints? the Pope? Where in the Bible was the Pope given this extraordinary power?

Its not Biblical to pray to anyone but God through Jesus.

[Just mythoughts]

.......Bart Ehrman has published an argument concluding the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus in Jn 3 “could not have happened, at least not as it is described in the Gospel of John”.......

It seems in this need to argue against what is actually Written, Bart ignores the question Christ posed to Nicodemus in John 3:10 ...."Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? This lesson was not a new revelation and it was not given to have a slogan to be stated and/or ask 'are you born again'. Because IF the question is to one in a flesh body the answer is obvious and apparent ... that flesh body did get born from above.

So there was not a language barrier in what was Written down, there is a ignoring of what is actually being instructed. Nicodemus a Pharisee came 'secretly' to Christ to acknowledge WHO Christ was. And Christ picked the subject matter He intended to teach Nicodemus as well as future readers of the encounter.

John 3:13 Written as summation of the lesson states in a quite concise manner what Christ said ..."And no man ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.

The first requirement to 'see' the kingdom of heaven is to come through this flesh journey which those fallen angels of Genesis 6 and Jude (as well as in Revelation) describes will not survive to see or enter the kingdom of heaven.

We have Christ saying what is required to 'see' and then 'enter into the kingdom of God' regardless of what Bart claims.

What does that word 'saint' literally mean? From the Hebrew and the Greek? Only God keeps the perfect record from the beginning to put any of His children in the 'saint' category. Paul says in Ephesians 1:4 They were chosen/elected before the foundation of the world or before the overthrow - casting down of the devil. They stood against the serpent when he rebelled, as described in Genesis 1:2.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. When Christ returned to heaven the Holy Spirit was given to any who would through GOD/WORD be comforted, led, instructed. The Holy Spirit would not argue against God and/or Christ's instructions. Such as Bart did.

[Lee N. Field]

(This was originally shared here on AnsweringProtestants.com, as part of a longer post.)

If this is the quality of the apologetic for RC-ism at answseringprotestants.com, I'm not much worried, nor shaken in my faith.

[roamer_1]

Using Protestant logic... We have no way of identifying who a Pastor is... Or what a genuine marriage is... All is subject to personal interpretation once the concept of authority is removed.

We don't know who a 'pastor' is for sure - that is why it is so easy for us to vote with our feet. That is why a church is nothing but a gathering place. As that gathering starts to promulgate non-scriptural things, we dust off our feet, and go where the Gospel is being preached.

And the Bible differs from y'all in what a marriage is anyway, so what value has your authority in that? In the Bible, marriage is formally contracted (written agreement), followed by a separation while the groom goes to 'prepare a place for her', followed by the consummation, followed by public presentation. It is the agreement between the two, and the consummation that are the efficacious part - they are bound together BEFORE any vows or public act. The authority of a priest is superfluous, at best.

Likewise, a bill of divorcement is accomplished without any intercession or permission by religious authority.

So the authority you claim is not there... in either place.

[Salvation]

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists
that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther

[driftdiver]

So now you love him?

[Just mythoughts]

Now, now. Not all ‘Fundies’ contend the Word Christ used means ‘again’.

The instruction Christ decided to give Nicodemus is multidimensional. And is as well one more place to note when ‘life’ begins which is at conception.