Posted on 09/15/2013 1:37:28 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
(This was originally shared here on AnsweringProtestants.com, as part of a longer post.)
There is nothing wrong with asking the heavenly saints to pray for us.
Many Protestants argue that asking the saints to pray for us is “unbiblical,” while throwing around verses like 1 Timothy 2:5. But they are incorrect.
1 Timothy 2:5 — the infamous “one mediator between God and men” verse — refers to salvation, not prayer. The verse reminds us that it is only because of the graces found through Christ (God Himself) that we are able to have any real relationship with God and reach Heaven. It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself.
I was raised in several Protestant denominations. They all placed a major emphasis on Christians praying for each other — which is encouraged in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and other passages. I would contend that a saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would.
To put that another way, if someone asked you to do something for them, would you not be more likely to help them if they were your best friend, as opposed to a complete stranger? Of course, you may very well be willing to do something for a complete stranger, but you would probably be more willing to do something for your best friend.
And there is evidence in the Bible of the saints praying to God.
“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” – Revelation 8:3-4
The word for “saints” in that passage comes from the Greek word hagios. Thayer’s New Testament Greek-English Lexicon says that the best definition of hagios is “most holy thing, a saint”. This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that “saints” in this context can only refer to people on earth.
Now, what would the saints be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us. And because they are praying for us anyway, how could it be wrong to ask them to pray for us about something specific? It is like interacting with a DJ at an event. He’s playing music anyway, so what is the harm in asking him to play your favorite song?
Here’s my Scripture-based defense of the practice that should answer most Protestant objections:
Matthew 17:3-4 & Luke 9:28-31.
Moses and Elijah (who are clearly heavenly saints, not “saints” in the way Paul would sometimes use the word) are with Christ during the Transfiguration.
Revelation 6:9-11.
The martyrs can talk to God.
From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God.
Luke 15:10.
The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events.
1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16.
It is good for Christians to pray for one another.
Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us), why wouldn’t they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another?
Revelation 21:27.
Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven.
Psalm 66:18 & James 5:16.
God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective.
Because the saints have reached perfection (they are in Heaven), their prayers are more effective than the prayers of those that are less righteous, so that’s why one might ask them to pray instead of asking another Christian on earth or simply doing it themselves.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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Whoa, apologies for the run on and on of the text!
“We “literally” receive Him [if we wish] daily in the Breaking of the Bread.”
Unfortunately for Catholics, Jesus was not referring to the eating of bread when He said one must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. I posted about this in 215. And I apologize for the look...it all ran together.
I realize it does not make sense to a Catholic which is a huge part of why, I believe, they cling to Catholic dogma. When we speak of being born again, and by we I mean true believers, we are speaking of a spiritual birth. God in the person of the Holy Spirit enters into us and lives within us. When it happens to you, there is no doubt.
John 14:26
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
I had grown up in church and always knew Jesus was the way...I just did not understand how. I had made a declaration of faith in Jesus at the age of nine, but from that point on I lived my life and never gave it much thought. I was a rebellious child and that was the end of my church going days. It wasn’t till I was 32 and going thru a terrible crisis that I finally called out to God and asked Him to reveal Himself to me.
In that instant, I knew that the Spirit was in me and had been since I was 9 years old, working in my life to bring me to the point of anguish where He could finally reveal Himself to me. I looked back at my past and could see all the times He had protected me and kept me until I was ready to understand. Let me just say again that when one is born again of the Spirit there is no doubt. Will you know everything there is to know about Him and faith right away? No, but it is the beginning of the journey and the only way to God.
He comes when all you want is Him and only Him. For most people, myself included, it happens when they have come to the end of themselves. I had nowhere else to turn and the Scripture from my childhood came to me. The rest is as I have described above.
Have I been perfect and sinless since then? Not hardly. But what I am assured of is that from the moment I asked Him to come and live in my heart at the age of 9, He was there. Guiding the circumstances of my life and bringing me to a point of desperation so severe, He was my only hope. And that little girl who had asked Him into her heart all those years ago finally understood. Immanuel, God with us...and so He had been with me all that time.
I was also saved and sealed at the age of 9 and my salvation was secure and my name written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. God heard the heartfelt cry of the 9-year old and came right in...and was still there when the 32-year old cried out again. As I say over and over, it takes a heart that wants Him and nothing else. Will you lay down everything for Jesus? Catholicism, Protestantism, whatever-ism and choose only Him?
Attending Mass is not having the Living Christ within you. It is simply attending a service in a building.
Oh how I pray that God will burst in on you and reveal Himself in no uncertain terms to you, mlizzy!!
You have nothing, Thomas, without the Spirit of the Living God residing in your heart!
Why do you want bread or wine or whatever it is you eat and drink when you can have HIM?
You are substituting ritual and sacraments and I don’t even know what else for the Spirit of God in you, and I am here to tell you that nothing can take His place.
Just as I said to mlizzy, I pray that God will burst in on you and reveal Himself to you in no uncertain terms. And show you that faith is not about Catholicism or Protestantism or any other ism...it is just about Him. Are you willing to give everything up for Him? I did and I have never looked back.
This is not meant to save you. This is not how one receives Jesus. One must be born again of the Spirit. Christ’s Spirit must come and live within you. And it is not until this happens that you will have the discernment and wisdom to correctly interpret scripture. I am not saying that to brag...I am just stating a fact. There is such a misunderstanding, deliberate or not, of scripture among Catholics.
I grew up Baptist and it is called the Lord’s Supper. Crackers and grape juice were used...not even real wine. But I digress....since I was not a member of that Baptist church I did not take the Lord’s Supper...it was restricted to church members only. See where I am going with this?
It never bothered me at all since I knew that Jesus lived in my heart and no church building or church membership or crackers and juice could ever change that. And, in fact, I attend no church at all and have never done any of the ritualistic things associated with religion. But Jesus lives inside of me and I’ve no doubt about that at all.
This is what all of you are missing...a changed heart...a spiritual birth that once it occurs will leave you in no doubt that it has. God will reveal Himself to you if you are in earnest and are willing to have Him and Him alone. And once He has entered your heart, the Holy Spirit begins the task of teaching you discernment and gives you wisdom....not man’s wisdom, but God’s wisdom.
Angels, yes.....dead humans, no.
Angels get it from God, they aren’t getting it from us directly. “Angels” work for God, not us. Angels are not dead humans, they were never human.
No, matthew, they cannot.
No amount of scriptural gymnastics will ever lead anyone to that conclusion.
It is clear that you want your Catholic church and not Jesus.
I leave you to your dead faith with your dead saints. May God bring you to the truth.
something rituals will never replace
“Luke 15:10 says that “there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” So, obviously, the angels know what’s going on here on earth.”
This is what my answer was in reference to.
Yes, angels can hear us. No, dead humans cannot hear us...as in our prayers and praying to them. They know nothing of what is transpiring on earth, but angels and demons and Satan most assuredly do.
So I’ve really no idea what you are talking about.
God shows no partiality.
You left out the reference of Saul calling up Samuel to ask him to talk to God for him.
So which of you is willing to lay everything on the line for Christ even if it means giving up the comfort of your organized man-made religion? Do any of you really want Jesus Christ so badly that you are prepared to walk away from Catholicism? Is He more important to you than it? Pray that He reveals the truth to you even if it means leaving something you have held so dear all your life. Which one of you is brave enough to lose everything in order to know the Savior?
I believe that this making it "personal."
Making it personal and stalking?
God will listen much more cheerfully to a fallen sinner returning to Him, than to those already in His royal family. It isn't our perfection giving us merit. It is His grace.
Come on...it was not even addressed to you but you stick your nose in.
You people and your personal and stalking. You’d turn Jesus Christ Himself into a stalker if He didn’t come bearing bread, wine, and whatever silly stuff you think is necessary to fit your brand of religiosity.
Go away and do not bother me again.
Wow, really verga!
Since Jesus Christ wants a “personal” relationship with you and you can’t stand personal or even something you think might be personal, then that lets you out of the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus is all about personal. And that is what all of you are afraid of! Not interested in the truth...just staying in your comfortable religion. Well, go right ahead. It is certainly nothing to me. But for those seekers here who are listening and do want truth, I shall continue to give it to them.
As I said in my last post to you, go away and bother me no more.
As long as you BELIEVE in Jesus is all that matters.
Your welcome!
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