Posted on 09/15/2013 1:37:28 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
(This was originally shared here on AnsweringProtestants.com, as part of a longer post.)
There is nothing wrong with asking the heavenly saints to pray for us.
Many Protestants argue that asking the saints to pray for us is unbiblical, while throwing around verses like 1 Timothy 2:5. But they are incorrect.
1 Timothy 2:5 the infamous one mediator between God and men verse refers to salvation, not prayer. The verse reminds us that it is only because of the graces found through Christ (God Himself) that we are able to have any real relationship with God and reach Heaven. It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself.
I was raised in several Protestant denominations. They all placed a major emphasis on Christians praying for each other which is encouraged in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and other passages. I would contend that a saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would.
To put that another way, if someone asked you to do something for them, would you not be more likely to help them if they were your best friend, as opposed to a complete stranger? Of course, you may very well be willing to do something for a complete stranger, but you would probably be more willing to do something for your best friend.
And there is evidence in the Bible of the saints praying to God.
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angels hand. Revelation 8:3-4
The word for saints in that passage comes from the Greek word hagios. Thayers New Testament Greek-English Lexicon says that the best definition of hagios is most holy thing, a saint. This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that saints in this context can only refer to people on earth.
Now, what would the saints be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us. And because they are praying for us anyway, how could it be wrong to ask them to pray for us about something specific? It is like interacting with a DJ at an event. Hes playing music anyway, so what is the harm in asking him to play your favorite song?
Heres my Scripture-based defense of the practice that should answer most Protestant objections:
Matthew 17:3-4 & Luke 9:28-31.
Moses and Elijah (who are clearly heavenly saints, not saints in the way Paul would sometimes use the word) are with Christ during the Transfiguration.
Revelation 6:9-11.
The martyrs can talk to God.
From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God.
Luke 15:10.
The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events.
1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16.
It is good for Christians to pray for one another.
Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us), why wouldnt they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another?
Revelation 21:27.
Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven.
Psalm 66:18 & James 5:16.
God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective.
Because the saints have reached perfection (they are in Heaven), their prayers are more effective than the prayers of those that are less righteous, so thats why one might ask them to pray instead of asking another Christian on earth or simply doing it themselves.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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Are you willing to lay down everything you know and love for Him, including your Catholic dogma?What you're saying doesn't make sense to a Catholic. We "literally" receive Him [if we wish] daily in the Breaking of the Bread. Why would we walk away from such strength, such power, such love?
And that is my point....you have settled for something that is second rate at best even if it were true while ignoring the fact that you may come directly to the Father.
Why would you not want to do that? Perhaps because you are not born again, you are not filled with the Holy Spirit, and you still stand in judgement by God. But this is lifted the moment sincere belief occurs. You are washed as clean as new-fallen snow and no more are you condemned but have found been righteous in God’s eyes.
This is what you are seeking...not something said to a dead human who can neither see you nor hear you. Take what is being offered you and never let go!
We are made righteous by Jesus and have access to the great I AM! Why would you not want that?I do do that. I've attended daily Mass since 1984. That's a whole lot of Jesus right there. :)
Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Does Jesus ask the Church to pray for Her members? Again, Matthew 18
[15] But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. [16] And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. [17] And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. [18] Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. [19] Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. [20] For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
We have Christ in the Eucharist.
Is this in Luther's Bible?
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:5356).For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me. In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me. For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lords death until he comes.
So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. (1 Cor 11:27-30)
Amen!!!
Matthew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mark 5:36 ...Be not afraid, only believe.
Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to GIVE you the kingdom.
Thanks, but the last thing I need is a Catholic telling me how to pray. If you regarded yourself as a catholic and part of Christ’s church then I would give you credence, but a Catholic that thinks his Church is the only way?
No thanks.
*specific capitalization and the absence there of is not only accurate and intentional, but biblical as well.
Sadly, I think that the majority of the misunderstanding of the Church by our separated brethren stems from their lack of reception of the Holy Eucharist. Again:
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Oh, matthew, please come out of that den of heresy called the Catholic Church.
YOU personally must be filled with the Holy Spirit to inherit the kingdom of God. NO priest, or parent, or church member can do anything for you or make any pronouncement about who is or is not in heaven. Can you not see that all this praying to saints is nothing but the the machinations of Satan and fallen man?
Why would you want to subjugate your right to directly approach God to anyone else? It cost God an enormous sum to
purchase us and make us His. He will never allow anyone else to usurp His presence in our lives. Certainly not some dead human being who may or may not be with Him now.
We are to grasp this privilege tightly and never let go. As believers we have been given great honor thru Jesus and no one else. Pray directly to your Father who is in heaven!
Look no further than Jesus!
Look to no other!
Catholics only have a very few talking points in defense of Catholicism and none ever line up with scripture.
Are you born again, narses? Are you filled with the Holy Spirit? If you are not, then you will not see the kingdom of God. If you are, then you have everything you need and all the rights and privileges of heaven have been conferred upon you. You are counted as righteous and are called saint.
Why do you not want that and to have assurance of your salvation? The Catholic dogma is a poor substitute for the Living God.
Article was excellent. Thank-you and God Bless.
Wow, you could not be any more wrong.
No true believer ever converts to a dogma or a creed or a man-made religion. He is converted by Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit, who then imparts wisdom and discernment.
As I said in a previous post, do you want Jesus so badly that you would leave everything behind were He to command you so. Or do you want the comfort of your dogma instead of the living Christ?
Very few choose the path of Christ alone, but for those who do the key to heaven is given. Nothing on this earth can compare.
I would be quite surprised if Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II made it to heaven. Certainly by the standards of the world and by the Catholic church they are there.
But, unfortunately for them, those are not the standards by which we are judged. If they did not place their belief in Jesus and were not born again of the Spirit, then they are not in Heaven.
Mother Theresa herself expressed doubts about whether she was saved and going to be with God upon her death. For most of her life she was filled with doubt about her salvation. If one is saved, there will be no doubt since the Holy Spirit comes to live inside us. We have no doubt whatsoever.
http://theworldfrommywindow.blogspot.com/2007/08/sad-truth-about-mother-teresa-revealed.html
I do not believe Mother Teresa was ever born again and filled with the Holy Spirit. If she had been, she would never have doubted her salvation.
Indeed.
No more need be said to you then as you have made your eternal destiny known to all.
ph
I don’t think that you read my whole post.
The saints can hear us, by the grace of God.
Luke 15:10 says that there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. So, obviously, the angels know whats going on here on earth.
Luke 20:35-36 teaches us that those that are [resurrected] from the dead (aka those that reach Heaven) are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. This indicates that the angels and heavenly saints are generally equal. So, it seems that Luke 15:10 would also apply to the heavenly saints.
See my post to Justmythoughts about biblical saints.
The term Rapture doesn’t appear in the bible either but it is clearly taught.
http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-bible.html
His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself (Psalm 119:160).
Unless you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, Thomas, you will cling to what you know. Just as I asked the others, do you want to know Jesus even if it means leaving Catholicism?
And just a clarification to mlizzy and her sad reply to this question: Catholics all think we are trying to make them Protestant but that is not true. We want to see them born again and filled with the Holy Spirit. Neither Catholic or Protestant but Spirit-filled believers. No other appellation is needed.
Thank you for saying that; it’s very kind of you. May God bless you, too! I will definitely pray for you. :)
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