Posted on 08/26/2013 3:32:14 PM PDT by marshmallow
BEVERLY — Before Mass on a recent Sunday, the Rev. Jurgen Liias stood in a cramped sacristy of a Catholic church with an acolyte and cantor and began a call-and-response prayer of preparation.
Incense smoldered. The men thumped their chests in a gesture of contrition.
The elaborate ritual would seem unusual to most Catholic priests, who pray silently before Mass as they don their vestments, or quietly focus on the sacred work ahead. But Liias, who is 65, is different. He entered the church through a new doorway that lets members of the Anglican Communion return to the mother church in Rome while retaining their congregational communities — and, if they wish, much of their ornate ritual, including old Catholic traditions that Rome changed or left behind.
Pope John Paul II extended to Anglicans, including married priests, the opportunity to become Catholic in 1980. During the next 30 years, 100 or so Anglican priests entered the Catholic Church and were incorporated into local dioceses.
But some in the worldwide Anglican Communion — particularly the Episcopal Church, the religious body’s US province — wanted to make it easier for whole congregations to come in, and to be part of a group of like-minded churches.
At their request, Pope Benedict XVI established special “ordinariates” — basically superdioceses — especially for Anglican priests and congregations. The Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter, which spans the United States and Canada, was created last year. It includes more than 30 congregations, including Liias’s St. Gregory the Great, which held its first Mass in April.
“They are on a pilgrimage together, as opposed to an individual journey,” said the Rev. R. Scott Hurd, the ordinariate’s vicar general.
It is a tiny movement so far, with fewer than 2,000 people spread across a vast continent..........
(Excerpt) Read more at bostonglobe.com ...
Good...The more the merrier...With what’s going on in Syria, it shouldn’t be too long that the World religion should be bowing down to the anti-Christ...
Even so, come Lord Jesus...
True, no one held a fun to my head.
But, first of all, my FRiend, this was not a post about "faith". It is a post about a man leaving one errant organization and joining that Roman monstrosity of heresy they call a Church. There is a statement being made that the latter is more correct than the former. It is important to point out that this would be equivalent of an orthodox Jew in Paul's day joining the Judaizers. And, Paul hoped they would cut off certain important parts in the process.
Theology is important and Rome has it more incorrect than the group whence the guy cometh. If you think everything is equally true and want to make nicey with the Scientologists, have at it. Just don't expect all the rest of us to join you.
You obviously have not read the entire Book, my FRiend. Paul's admonitions were to believers, between believers. The RCC does not present the Gospel of Grace in Jesus Christ, but a religiosoty derived from traditions and doctrines of demons. The sacerdotalism, the indulgences, the sacraments, the mariolatry, the genuflecting, the absolution of sin, the papal heresy is all part and parcel of an enormous errant "gospel". To call it out is not only kind, but necessary.
If you saw a child standing in the street with a bus coming, would you see it too strident to scream, "Get out of the street!". Consider this the scream. But, of course, they will get out of the street only if God grants them so.
I guess some people enjoy living in the flesh.
You may wish to read the Book a little more carefully.
I grew up as a devout Protestant. I spent my adulthood as an evangelical Christian who held onto the Lord and His promises with joyful gratitude. In all my years as a Protestant, all over the US, in many different churches I attended through our family’s moves, I never heard the anti-Catholic hatred I see here on FR. But three years ago I had to finally start examining the logic for the claims of the Church you term a “monstrosity of heresy,” and—reluctantly!—I had to concede their veracity and become a Catholic. Now I am regularly stunned by the hatred I find here among my fellow conservatives and Christians. This level of hatred shocks me to my soul.
I thought or hoped that my ministry might be to bridge the gap and help both Protestants and Catholics see what they have in common, but the task is too great in the face of this spitting fury. When I explain the background for Protestant beliefs to Catholics, the Catholics nod and say (in paraphrase), “We think that this or that doctrine is incorrect in this and this particular, but we know that Protestants love and serve the Lord too and will go to heaven.” But when I explain the premises of Catholicism to certain Protestants, it smells like 1565: all that fury! And quite often they will argue with me about what the Catholic Church teaches and believes, as if they know what is in our hearts (and in our official Church documents, our vast historical literature, and our Catechism) better than we do.
FRiend, the Scriptures tell us and warn us that we will be known by our love for one another. I must tell you that you are not being a good witness for Christianity in general with your hostility. Do you think your witness is going to attract or persuade anyone who is not a Christian or not of your church? It might be a good thought to ask yourself the source of your bitter hatred for people who believe differently than you do. Why do you attack and insult? Does this convert anyone? Does the Lord smile down on your virulence, or does He prefer Christians to be united against their mutual enemies, those dark powers and principalities?
I pray that someday soon all such divisions between Christians will go away so that we may fight Satan together. Meanwhile, blessings and peace to you.
To not tell anyone of this amazing grace is to do the OPPOSITE of love them. A person is doing nothing more than smiling while their friend goes to hell, it is NOT being loving. Read 2 Cor. 5:14-21 if you want to know what TRUE love is toward your neighbor.
There is a difference between “telling the truth in love” and being full of insult and hostility.
Do you not think that “you are a sinner and you are dead in your sins” sounds hostile and insulting to the outer man? Just like “you are a good person” or “your church will make sure you are a good person” SOUNDS loving, but it is guaranteed to condemn that person to hell. Psalms tells us that there is a way that seems right to a person but the end thereof is death and destruction. It seems right to be kind to the outer man, but that will be the road to his destruction. I would rather be known as the one who made people wail and gnash because I told the truth, than the one who sent my neighbors to hell while smiling broadly at them.
Look, you write in a patient and logical way, clearly explicating your beliefs. But there are many whose witness is just full of fury and ugliness. That self-righteousness accomplishes nothing except to fracture the Body of Christ and rejoice Satan. It does not persuade or convert. Remember, you are writing to a former Protestant and evangeical. I hear where you're coming from. I'm just staggered at the virulent, spitting hatred for Catholic brothers and sisters.
One man's "hatred" is another man's "love". It's about the TRUTH. That's ALL>
No, no, not you! I don’t feel any hatred from you at all! Quite the contrary, you seem urgently concerned, not angry or hateful. Don’t misunderstand, please. I am not referring to you, Smvoice. But there are many other Freepers who display such ugliness.
So let me understand—when you say “the Catholic Church follows another Christ, another gospel,” do you mean that you and we have a different perception of Who Christ is, or do you mean something else?
And by the way, if a Catholic tells you that the Roman Catholic Church is the only way and that Protestants are going to hell, he doesn’t know his own Church’s teachings. This is not what the Church says at all.
I should give you this disclaimer, ott, I HAVE been known to make people wail and gnash on this board...:)
Thank you for the kind wishes, especially after you have claimed I have "hostility". From what I can tell, you are bordering on overstepping your bounds here at FR, my FRiend. Telling folks what they think is frowned upon.
But, apart from that there are a ton of very interesting problems within your post. First, If you decided to leave "Protestantism" for Catholicism, you now have a dog in the fight. You must defend your decision to swim the Tiber and contend with anything which might point out that this was a gross error. This is an action, not an attitude (I have no idea what you think about this). Yours is not a ministry, my FRiend, it is a project to deflect whatever mistakes might be uncovered in your new adopted theology.
Second, you speak as though your mistaken concession to the "veracity" of Rome now trumps the Scripture's assessment of its heresies. Sadly, this only points out that the group you were formerly involved with did not teach the Scriptures very well (thus, you have no idea what the errors at stake really are), or you were not paying attention. It may have been that your "Protestant" group was equally incorrect so you saw no difference between the two. There are many of those out there. Or, you may not have been among the elect and Jesus has not yet included you. I don't know and I am not to judge your final destination. But, whatever the case, your pronouncement of Rome's "veracity" means only that you now need them to be legitimate. You have staked your life on it. Biblically based believers have no such need insofar as their destiny is in the hands of Jesus Christ, alone.
Second, there is no hatred of Catholics, many of whom are likely among the elect. Let me say that again, since you don't read my posts very carefully. Many, many Catholics are likely saved...not because of Rome, but IN SPITE of Rome. It is the doctrines of demons Rome teaches which are grossly out of synch with the Bible and compel anyone who can see the errors to speak up. Read again Paul's angry arguments with Judaizers in the letter to the Galatians ("You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you?".
Perhaps you were persuaded by Rome's revisionist history, and you may be "stunned" to find folks who don't accept their propaganda machine, but for me to call out to others that the train is on the wrong track is not "hostility" or "hatred". It is a kindness and much more loving than trying to reconcile errant theology because one must be polite. The real question you should be asking is, "What errors do you think Rome makes?" Not, why don't you speak more sweetly? Truth is what is at stake here,not PC.
Third, (this brings us to) the doctrines which Rome promulgates. They are not "Christian" in any sense of Paul's words. That is, if the Scriptures are the measure of all things versus Rome (another error). Rome resembles modern day Judaizers returning to a Mosaic Law with priests and ceremonies and incorrect statements about the administration of grace. Sacerdotalism, mariolatry, indulgences, papalism, absolution, confession, icons, rosaries, celibacy, sacraments, and a host of others are replete with errors. If you wish to examine these more closely, let me know.
You may find comfort in the tactile feelings derived from the physical structure of Rome...Paul finds the stuff reprehensible. Read Colossians. I stand with Paul over against Rome. He would say there are no divisions among real believers, as there is not really "another gospel". And, with Paul, we say with all the clarity we can muster, the teachers of Rome are wrong who claim anything but faith, granted through the unmerited grace of God, can save a man.
Excellent points, smvoice. I will study them carefully. But, had to send you a LOL for your “disclaimer”. I have a feeling, I should put this on my posts, too.
LOL! Hey, the way I see it, if we aren’t “offending” someone, we aren’t giving them God’s Word truthfully. He was sent to divide, not unify as His actions in the Temple clearly show...how have you been doing? I haven’t “talked” to you awhile around here. Hope everything’s going great and that God is wrapping you in His Grace and Peace. I’m certain He is. His love for the beloved is boundless and never-failing, no matter how much wailing and gnashing we engage in. It’s part of the job, being a soldier for Him. Take care and God Bless! sm
Well I’m not sure even that number will come over, but like the Orthodox Churches, there will be one here and there. If they count as fulfilling the obligation for Roman Catholics, perhaps some will thrive. Like many churches, attendance is driven as much by habit or training, as by faith. They are social organization and not much more, in many cases.
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