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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
Don't kill that baby cow.

I have enough experience with your "questions" to know that whatever I say, no matter how much documentation I provide, nor any amount of Scripture nor basic logic will sway someone whose mind is already made up. I'll give the old college try anyway.

Ignatius as well as Athanasius and others (including the Apostle Paul) battled with the Greek Gnostic thinkers who denied that Christ had a PHYSICAL BODY. Not to mention, that that BODY could actually suffer and die. They denied that Jesus had a HUMAN nature. That's why we find writings from theologians from that time arguing against that idea of a nonphysical Jesus. So, when Jesus takes the unleavened bread at the supper and holds it up saying, "This is my body which is broken for you.", he was using a PHYSICAL, TANGIBLE object lesson (not to mention the symbolic rendering of the afikoman as representing the Lamb of God) to tell them that HE was the Lamb of God and HIS body was to be broken for them. Ignatius defends the very real human physical body that Jesus had. He is NOT, as those who like to read back into ancient writings dogmas that were not held at that time do, saying that this bread changes miraculously into his body so that those who eat it obtain a measure of grace to pay for their most current confessed sins so that they can avoid a longer purgatory stay (something Ignatius ALSO never heard of).

The Gnostics, contrary to your opinion, would NOT say the Eucharist was "just bread", they would say, "Why would we use bread at all, Jesus only came here spiritually!?". Holy Scripture contradicts the Gnostics as well as those who would pervert the purpose of the observance of the Lord's Supper. It is a REMEMBRANCE of Him, just like He said.

409 posted on 08/08/2013 10:28:40 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
Don't kill that baby cow.

"Oh, George; not the livestock!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a33sr9UGvo

442 posted on 08/09/2013 6:56:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums

i had a very good hamburger for lunch today!

seriously, we are conservatives, words mean things. let’s look at what Ignatius wrote:

Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 6, 110 A.D.:
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God ... They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes

He specifically mentions “they” referring to the Gnostics, ABSTAIN FROM THE EUCHARIST, but WHY do they not partake of the Eucharist? He goes on to tell us EXACTLY why..... BECAUSE THEY DO NOT CONFESS ( believe ) THAT THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.
in other words, the Church taught the Eucharist was the Body of Christ ( “This is My Body”, “the bread we break, is it not a participation in the Body of Christ” ), but the Gnostics rejected the teaching. Ignatius could not have been clearer.

a problem many have who reject the historical orthodox Apostolic Faith is they don’t realize types and shadows were done away with when Jesus Christ began His ministry. The OT is full of types and shadows pointing to the Lord Jesus Christ and various aspects of His life and mission. the substance belongs to Christ.
so when Jesus gathered the Apostles together in the upper room, he was not dealing with Gnostics. they all very well knew Jesus had a real human body, they saw him eat and drink, they hugged, kissed and laughed with him, they saw him bathe,and they saw him cry. He did not need to use a type or shadow in breaking the bread to teach them an “object lesson”. no Jesus was giving to them a wonderful gift, Himself! The Eucharist is the fullfillment of His PROMISE to be with us always, even to the end of the world. He comes to believers with nourishment for the soul, to increase our faith and to bring glory to Himself as the Church remembers that we are not our own, that our salvation has been bought with a terrible price and all we can do is cry out thank you to the Lord Jesus Christ for loving us hell deserving sinners so much that He willingly suffered and died in order to reconcile us to God in His Body. that is the gift of the Eucharist, that the Church has celebrated for 2,000 years.
it is interesting that you mention the Last supper, as the beloved Apostle John was there to witness the first Eucharist and then 60 years later or so, this very same beloved Apostle, now an old man and soon to be reunited with his Master, taught the Faith to a very devout and faithful believer named Ignatius. we can be sure that John explained exactly that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior and Ignatius learned the Faith very well. so well in fact, that he was the made the bishop of Antioch and would later prove his love for the Lord by dying in the roman coliseum, torn apart by lions.
so yes, the Gnostics believed what the Christians were receiving was merely bread, not the living King of Kings and Lord of Lords. and yes, sadly there are many today, 1,900 years after Ignatius wrote this epistle that echo the Gnostic error by attacking the historical, orthodox, Apostolic Faith that says:

” THE BREAD WHICH WE BREAK, IS IT NOT A PARTICIPATION IN THE BODY OF CHRIST?”


469 posted on 08/09/2013 8:18:57 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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