Posted on 08/04/2013 11:14:42 AM PDT by ebb tide
Sorry, meant to ping you to #40...
“Augustine said it so you believe it? Arguing from authority now are you?”
Notice that in all your arguments, you’ve not once made an appeal of any kind, save to your own sentiments. If “Calvinism,” or “Augustinianism,” or “Paulianism,” or, rather, Christianity, has no basis in the scripture, or is backwards or some other issue, then in theory you should be able to tell me what this scripture means:
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
I’ve gone back and forth with you. It’s time for you to put up or shut up on this one. Please tell me, without my saying anything for now, what is the meaning of this verse. You’re free to make use of the context, whatever you like, to make your argument. But please, explain the meaning of this verse.
Divine foreknowledge and salvation by grace through faith.
And you get: ‘you’re either born doomed or saved, luck of the draw as far as you can know.’ Same for your kids.
My appeal is to realize where Calvinism ends up: A capricious pagan god responsible for all personal sin and each man responsible for none.
However you get there, when you get there - no matter how well you think any piece fits - you should realize you made a very wrong turn somewhere. You’ve gone backward.
And an obvious question that still needs to be asked:
>>”explain the meaning of this verse.”
What possible difference does it make what it means? What difference does it make what you believe or teach or others learn or believe?
This is all moot in Calvinism.
“Divine foreknowledge and salvation by grace through faith.”
Looking at the verse, you’re saying that the Father had foreknowledge about whom He would give to the Son and whom He wouldn’t? To “give” is not a passive act, it is a positive one. Furthermore, Christ is saying it as an explanation to Jews who did not believe. He is telling them that they don’t believe because it was not given to them to believe. How does your 8 word sentence in any way address what it actually said? Please be more specific.
As for “why does it matter.” It’s the scripture, number one, and therefore is infallible in its teaching. Secondly, the Spirit works through the the hearing and reading of the Word of God, as those who were ordained to eternal life believed at the preaching of Paul.
Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Who knows? Maybe the Holy Spirit will use this preaching to bring you out of Catholicism?
So, again, please give a detailed explanation for the meaning of that verse. Not just a random sentence about what you wished it meant. Or, if that one is too hard, let’s try another one.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
What does this verse mean? Don’t give me just a single sentence here. Use the context, use commentaries, use whatever you gotta use. Just give me the clear meaning of this verse. OR just the other one. Or BOTH if you’re feeling good. Makes no difference to me, honestly.
But you aren't.
The "what does it matter" question is about salvation. You don't think whether you get it right will make you elect do you? Or that not getting it right will make you a reprobate? You are already elect aren't you?
You don't think any of this here matters regarding salvation, do you? It can't possibly change who is born elect and who isn't, can it? It cannot possibly have any effect on this whatsoever. Nothing you or i or anyone else do or can do has any effect at all.
Not in Calvinism. It's all a done deal.
So, again, what is the point of you arguing with me about what a verse of Holy Scripture means?
“You don’t think any of this here matters regarding salvation, do you? It can’t possibly change who is born elect and who isn’t, can it? It cannot possibly have any effect on this whatsoever. Nothing you or i or anyone else do or can do has any effect at all.”
Of course it cannot change the secret counsel of God. But on the other hand, no one is being damned because they tried to believe and God still refused them. Look here, for instance, I’ve given you the opportunity to prove me wrong using the scripture. I’ve asked you to explain, using whatever means available, a simple verse. You haven’t, and you won’t. Who is to blame for this? You, of course. Just because the Holy Spirit decides to pass someone by (not necessarily speaking of you), and He decided to do so before the foundation of the world, doesn’t mean that you have lost your will. If you could believe without the working of the Holy Spirit, that certainly would be wonderful! Though, it’s impossible, seeing as how humanity is utterly subject to sin. The scripture is clear that unless it is given to you, you cannot believe. Unless the Holy Spirit gives it to you, you cannot believe.
1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Furthermore, man is all gone astray, they do not seek after God (see Romans 3). Though God certainly uses your sinning nature for His own purposes (speaking generally and not of you specifically), and arranges, through His providential power, to fit you for destruction, as He did Judas, you know that every time the truth is preached they are given a chance to believe, and yet, as the scripture teaches, they refuse to.
So then, God knowing this, foreseeing it, and ordaining your fate and purpose, albeit it is a dreadful one, is God unjust? If God, knowing that you are evil, and choosing to create you, knowing full well your nature, and deciding to make you a “vessel of wrath,” will you rail at God for doing what He wants with what belongs to Him? And if God foreseeing you as a sinner who would, if left alone, go straight to hell, decides to actively change the will and nature of the individual, is God unjust for not having this mercy on all?
You punted on those two verses, so let’s try another one.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Can you tell me what THIS verse means? Or, maybe, this one:
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Pick one, you only have to pick one. And let it be longer than a single random sentence, but a strong and detailed response, on what any of these verses mean.
I'm sorry, I still don't see the purpose here - from your point of view.
So, again, other than your amusement or some competitive game you're playing, what is the point of you arguing with me about what a verse of Holy Scripture means?
You really do not believe you're going to change whether I or anyone else, Catholic or not, has been born elect or reprobate, do you? This is, at best, sound and fury, signifying nothing.
I’ve given you the opportunity to prove me wrong using the scripture. I’ve asked you to explain, using whatever means available, a simple verse. You haven’t, and you won’t. Who is to blame for this?
God, right?
Why do care so much about winning an argument that changes absolutely nothing important for anyone - yourself included?
And if it matters not a bit, why should I play what is just a game for you?
“So, again, other than your amusement or some competitive game you’re playing, what is the point of you arguing with me about what a verse of Holy Scripture means?”
So what was wrong, exactly, with my previous reply? Just because you’re not happy with a response, doesn’t mean it’s a bad response. You’ve not explained what’s wrong with it. (Though, not explaining things seems to be your habit.) And, actually, there are many other responses I can give you, ranging from “Because I am commanded to,” to “because it robs you (speaking of the general “you,” and not you personally) of excuse on the great judgment day, since God reasoned with you, and proved that mankind can do nothing apart from His grace.”
Or as Augustine puts it,
“We most wholesomely confess that which we most rightly believe, that God, the Lord of all things, who created all things ‘very good,’ foreknew that evil would arise out of this good; and He also knew that it was more to the glory of His omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil, than not to permit evil to be at all! And He so ordained the lives of angels and of men that He might first show in them what free-will could do, and then afterwards show what the free gift of His grace and the judgment of His justice could do.” (Augustine, qtd in Calvin’s Treatise on Eternal Predestination)
So which of these do you like the best, and will make you happy? If you say “none,” well, I can’t help you there. If you can’t see my “point of view” and what motivates me to respond to you, I can’t help you there, no matter how much you tell me you are answering from my “point of view.” In the end, it is between you and God. In the end it is between you and that verse in chapter 6 of the Gospel of John, and many more just like it. The forgiveness of sins is liberally offered, and you do not know the secret will of God. If you (speaking generally again) will not convert, you only have yourself to blame. If you feel yourself not drawn, well, then go and pray to be drawn. If you feel yourself lost, well then go and pray to be found. But if you find conversion, remember it was God who made you sensible to your lack, and who so arranged everything to bring you, His sheep from before the foundation of the world, into salvation.
PELAGIANISM
Heretical teaching on grace of Pelagius (355-425), the English or Irish lay monk who first propagated his views in Rome in the time of Pope Anastasius (reigned 399-401). He was scandalized at St. Augustine's teaching on the need for grace to remain chaste, arguing that this imperiled man's use of his own free will. Pelagius wrote and spoke extensively and was several times condemned by Church councils during his lifetime, notably the Councils of Carthage and Mileve in 416, confirmed the following year by Pope Innocent I. Pelagius deceived the next Pope, Zozimus, who at first exonerated the heretic, but soon (418) retracted his decision. Pelagianism is a cluster of doctrinal errors, some of which have plagued the Church ever since. Its principal tenets are: 1. Adam would have died even if he had not sinned; 2. Adam's fall injured only himself and at worst affected his posterity by giving them a bad example; 3. newborn children are in the same condition as Adam before hi fell; 4. mankind will not die because of Adam's sin or rise on the Last Day because of Christ's redemption; 5. the law of ancient Israel no less than the Gospel offers equal opportunity to reach heaven. As Pelagianism later developed, it totally denied the supernatural order and the necessity of grace for salvation.
All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.
What's wrong with it is there's no purpose to it in your theology. It doesn't matter. You and I can argue interpretation until the second coming and nothing we say or do can possibly affect another human being in any way that matters concerning what is most important in our religion.
You still haven't given a reason that conforms to your theology.
“Because I am commanded to,”
OK, why should I ?
“because it robs you (speaking of the general “you,” and not you personally) of excuse on the great judgment day, since God reasoned with you
What? Some excuse will matter? I'm either doomed or saved already, right? This is nonsensical.
So which of these do you like the best, and will make you happy?
One that has (from the Calvinist theology) any real significance or purpose, makes any difference, will change anything or any one, or matters in any way one way or the other - excepting facilitating your view of your mission from God or for your entertainment or amusement in some competitive dueling scriptures game.
Can you come up with one consistent with Calvinism?
since God reasoned with you
You really are not saying you're God in this statement. I sure hope not.
“What? Some excuse will matter? I’m either doomed or saved already, right? This is nonsensical.”
How, exactly, is it nonsensical? Can you tell me? Because, honestly, I’m not sure that you can tell me how it is nonsensical. I think that’s just a comforting word you use, and something you hoped to prove, but couldn’t. After all, I’m literally just telling you what the scripture says, that God “willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction” (Rom 9:22). And, through this divine justice on the vessels of wrath, He “make[s] known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.” So then, wouldn’t showing that you, when being reasoned with, and given every opportunity, still refused the Gospel, show to the elect the necessity for His divine grace in salvation?
As for “Why should I?” Umm, because it is a sin to disobey God, and we are ordained for the purpose of producing fruit? As Christ says, ‘ye have not chosen me, I have chosen you, and ordained you to bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should abide.” If God has saved me, why shouldn’t I produce fruit, if that is what God moves me to do? Can you tell me how it is nonsensical in my theology, to believe that I obey God, because God moves me to obey God, as part of the fruit He wanted me to produce?
Of course I’m not claiming to be God. Though I am quoting the scripture at you, with God clearly speaking.
It is nonsensical to think it matters whether I have an excuse or not, or need an excuse or not, or a good excuse or bad excuse...
I’M ALREADY DOOMED ! OR SAVED!
Right?
What’s it matter if I have an excuse?
Your theology makes this whole discussion nonsensical, purposeless.
“Your theology makes this whole discussion nonsensical, purposeless.”
But notice how you subtly changed the goal post. You said that my answers were inconsistent within my own theology. You said, ‘you have not given a reason that conforms to your theology.” So, all I have to do is give an answer consistent with my theology, right? (Which I’ve been doing all along, actually.) Can you tell me how I failed at that? And I mean, in detail. Don’t just say “it’s nonsensical!”, or give one random sentence ignoring everything I said. If God who, through Paul, earlier said “Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?”, and then, a few verses later, makes it clear that He wants the elect to understand something, and to show forth His justice on the reprobate... then how can you accuse me of being “nonsensical” when I merely repeated what the scripture said? I’d consider it the most consistent answer I could give. If God does not think it is nonsensical to show the elect something, to teach them, and to show forth His justice and mercy, His opinion should trump yours, right?
Now, that you find it nonsensical, from my “point of view,” which you are claiming to try to argue from, is the same as saying that the scripture is nonsensical. So, unless I am somehow wrong, why should I regard your opinion about it being nonsensical? From my theological standpoint, all I have to do is conclude that the “carnal mind” cannot comprehend the truths of scripture. Pretty simple to conclude, eh? So, I actually like it when you want me to argue from my own theology.
Now, if you want to drop all this and start saying that this theology, in general, is wrong. Well, then go back to that verse in John 6 and tell me what it means. Can you do that?
Because it isn't fruit. It's a meaningless imitation of fruit in a puppet world where your or anyone else's fruit makes no real difference to anyone. It's busy work that makes you feel good at best.
That's the conclusion of Calvinist theology. A god that you serve by doing something that doesn't matter.
If you end up with this as god, you have left Christ who preaches to us, exhorts us, loves us, calls us to love one another and help each other... because if we do, it really does matter.
LOL, I think we’ve reached the point in this conversation where you’re mind is just going “system error!”, and so it just keeps repeating the same thing over and over again. Since I can’t do this all night, and I don’t want to do this for days on end, I’ll go ahead and end my involvement in this thread here, unless something EXTREMELY interesting is said. You don’t have to give me an answer, but I counsel you to take the scripture seriously, and leave off all these vain things.
You have failed at that as to how I defined it: in regards to salvation. You've given reasons, but none that has any purpose or meaning or significance in regard to salvation.
It's like you've given some nice ideas for the arrangement of the Titanic deck chairs, but..
I keep repeating the same point because you have not answered it.
I see no answer for it in Calvinism. If you can find one, please offer it up.
As for vain, it seems to me you think this discussion is for you to show your fruit. I’m not buying it.
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