Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt

New York Times ^ | July 20, 2013 | LAURIE GOODSTEIN

[Not gonna take it anymore]

In the small but cohesive Mormon community where he grew up, Hans Mattsson was a solid believer and a pillar of the church. He followed his father and grandfather into church leadership and finally became an “area authority” overseeing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout Europe

When fellow believers in Sweden first began coming to him with information from the Internet that contradicted the church’s history and teachings, he dismissed it as “anti-Mormon propaganda,” the whisperings of Lucifer. He asked his superiors for help in responding to the members’ doubts, and when they seemed to only sidestep the questions, Mr. Mattsson began his own investigation.

[Colonel_Flagg]

I just realized that, once again, you’re quicker on the draw than I am.

And hello by the way :)

[TheOldLady]

Hello to you too. It is very nice to see you again.

I hope that all is well with you and yours.  

[Elsie]

 

 ".^[135] Beck has acknowledged that the Mormon "doctrine is different" from traditional Christianity,

           but said that this was what attracted him to it, stating that "for me some of the things in traditional doctrine just doesn't work."^[136]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Beck

 

 

 

[MarkBsnr]

and certainly we don't bash Jewish people

The Jewish people were the first to hear God. They are the elder brethren of the Christians. They are the vine that Christians are grafted in on.

why Mormons?

Because Joseph Smith copied Mohammed in creating a new religion after convicted criminal Joe discovered magic mushrooms in upstate New York. There are a number of very instructive articles written about it. Modern forensic psychologists are getting very good at their trade.

[TheThirdRuffian]

“certainly we don’t bash Jewish people”

You’ve clearly missed every thread on FR where Israel or Jewish people are mentioned.

[MarkBsnr]

LDS is it’s own island, or inter-space stopover or planet....

For the men, anyway, who can rise to the top.

The women just stay on the bottom (so to speak) and become eternally pregnant.

[ForAmerica]

back to Mormon bashing....

What did Joseph Smith say the "first principle of the gospel" was?

[Elsie]

The Jewish people were the first to hear God.

Dang!

I always had thought it was Adam!

[ForAmerica]

Joseph Smith started the Mormon church with Christian bashing, “all wrong, abomination and corrupt”!

[Elsie]

Because Joseph Smith copied Mohammed in creating a new religion after convicted criminal Joe discovered magic mushrooms in upstate New York.

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“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

• Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

• Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

• Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

• As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

• Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

• Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

• Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

• Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

• Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, look to Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib, whom they consider Divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam. (Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

• Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.

---

[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.

[JAKraig]

Elsie,

Despite your attempts to get me to hate you I'm just not much into hate.

As I travel in circles with my wife people assume I'm a Mormon. I don't normally say anything because I don't care what strangers think about me, for the most part.

I hear snide remarks about Christianity all the time. The accusations that I'm inferior because I'm not Christian sometimes get under my skin. I try to tell myself to consider the source but that doesn't always work. Now put yourself in my wifes shoes.

I have never known a more Christian woman than her. You can say what you like but if you look in Websters Dictionary under the definition of Christian, one of the listings will be my wifes name.

To say Mormon bashers turn me off is quite an understatement.

I'm fine with Jehovah's Witnesses being what they want. I'm just really good with my Catholic friends beihg what they want and so on. I just get tired of all the people that tell me I'm going to Hell because I married a Mormon.

Now, to answer your comment. Maybe not everyone hates Mormons, but, it sure seems like it most days.

[Elsie]

Modern forensic psychologists are getting very good at their trade.

We blind squirrels ain't so shabby ourselves!

[Elsie]

You’ve clearly missed every thread on FR where Israel or Jewish people are mentioned.

Me, too!

I've surely missed a few of them; how 'bout the rest of you guys?

[Elsie]

For an ‘official’ resource; this sounds like FAIRLDS or FARMS wrote it!

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101

[Elsie]

What did Joseph Smith say the "first principle of the gospel" was?

---

The truths about God that Joseph Smith restored are of paramount importance. In 1844, he taught that “it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another.” ⁷

 

 

 http://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/01/the-restoration-of-major-doctrines-through-joseph-smith-the-godhead-mankind-and-the-creation?lang=eng

 

 

 

[Elsie]

Despite your attempts to get me to hate you I'm just not much into hate.

And just WHERE is the evidence of this 'attempt' you claim exists?

[Elsie]

Now put yourself in my wifes shoes.

No thanks!

[Elsie]

I have never known a more Christian woman than her.

But she's NOT a Christian; but a MORMON.

[Elsie]

To say Mormon bashers turn me off is quite an understatement.

I can understand that.

And what do people who EXPOSE facts about Mormonism do for you?

[Elsie]

I just get tired of all the people that tell me I'm going to Hell because I married a Mormon.

Not YOU; but your WIFE!!

You'd better get some sister wives to help her out!

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Reply #36 sure scare the HELL out of ANY SLC Mormon reading it; or at LEAST their husband!