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Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?
catholic-convert ^
| July 11, 2012
| Steve Ray
Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer
Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?
A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…
Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints cant do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!
Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?
An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the dead in Christ are those saints who have physically died. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first (1 Thess 4:16).
THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE JESUS ALONE DOCTRINE. From some peoples point of view, people who have died are classified as dead saints, who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people dont want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, JESUS ALONE fails. If the so-called dead saints do anything then it is not JESUS ALONE, but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called dead saints are in fact not dead, but alive with God.
Dead or in paradise?
HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly dead saints who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no dead saint because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants
HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says Jesus is the god of the living. However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; He is not God of the dead but of the living.
- “God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mk 12: 26-27).
Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as dead saints.
Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?
WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than dead saints who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called dead saints; not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.
SORRY LEONARD
YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument. He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun (Eccles 9:6).
When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the persons soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?
How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?
Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet (Kings 13:20-21).
Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It cant be much clearer than that!
The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ
JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE DEAD SAINTS. Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.
“Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?
This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that dead saints cant do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.
So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?
TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholic; deadsaints; doctrine; prayer; scripture
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To: xzins; HoosierDammit; TYVets; red irish; fastrock; NorthernCrunchyCon; UMCRevMom@aol.com; ...
xzins wrote:
If someone is now listening, I’d like them to pray to God with me about my extremely ill, 3 year old grandson. Pray to God with me that he will be healed of the cancer that is ravaging his tiny body.
921
posted on
07/16/2013 9:27:24 PM PDT
by
narses
To: JCBreckenridge; metmom; All
Salvation is through a person, not a church. Gonna need a quote for this.6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)
The apostle Paul even says we are baptized "into Christ"...a person...(Romans 6:3) -- not so much baptized into a church...though 1 Cor. 12:13 does say we baptized so as to form one body.
To: JCBreckenridge
Are you claiming Jesus appeared to you? Is your reading comprehension really as bad as all that?
Where did I say or even imply something like that?
How did you find out about Jesus in the first place?
The same way everyone else does, by the Word. All we know and need to know about Jesus is found in the Bible.
923
posted on
07/16/2013 9:29:28 PM PDT
by
metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
To: JCBreckenridge
Already gave it. Acts 4:12.
Try reading my posts next time before you ask for something that is already posted.
924
posted on
07/16/2013 9:30:41 PM PDT
by
metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
To: metmom
“The same way everyone else does, by the Word. All we know and need to know about Jesus is found in the Bible.”
So how did you find out about the bible?
925
posted on
07/16/2013 9:37:53 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: Colofornian
“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you”
926
posted on
07/16/2013 9:41:10 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: JCBreckenridge; CynicalBear
And my question is rather simple too. Do you believe you can pick and choose doctrine? CB's initial question to you asked where the Council of Nicea GOT the idea of defining the Trinity. They did NOT just invent the doctrine. They knew what the Apostles taught, what Jesus taught and what the Bible said concerning the nature of Almighty God and how He has revealed Himself to mankind. They took this knowledge and came up with a succinct and easy to learn "creed" that put into words what Scripture clearly taught. It was certainly in answer to heretical sects that flared up from the start that questioned the Deity of Jesus Christ and it addressed and defined what the Trinity is so that Christians would not be confused and tripped up by these heretics. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity:
The English word "trinity" is derived from Latin trinitas, meaning "the number three, a triad". This abstract noun is formed from the adjective trinus (three each, threefold, triple),[7] as the word unitas is the abstract noun formed from unus (one). The corresponding word in Greek is Τριάς, meaning "a set of three" or "the number three".[8]
The first recorded use of this Greek word in Christian theology (although not about the Divine Trinity) was by Theophilus of Antioch in about 170. He wrote:[9][10]
In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity [Τριάδος], of God, and His Word, and His wisdom. And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man.[11]
Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd century, is credited as being the first to use the Latin words "Trinity",[12] "person" and "substance"[13] to explain that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "one in essencenot one in Person".[14]
So, the Council of Nicea did not invent the doctrine of the Trinity. They defined it as Scripture did. One can believe in the Trinity without having to accept everything that Nicea put forth because it is a Biblical doctrine found in Scripture.
927
posted on
07/16/2013 9:45:44 PM PDT
by
boatbums
(God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
To: Colofornian
928
posted on
07/16/2013 9:46:17 PM PDT
by
boatbums
(God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
To: xzins; narses; Texas Termite; .30Carbine; 68 grunt; 8mmMauser; admiralsn; Aggie Mama; al_c; ...
929
posted on
07/16/2013 9:53:22 PM PDT
by
Kathy in Alaska
((~RIP Brian...the Coast Guard lost a good one.~))
To: xzins; nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; ...
930
posted on
07/16/2013 9:56:03 PM PDT
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
Comment #931 Removed by Moderator
To: narses
To: xzins
UI pray that your grandson be healed of this cancer. May the Lord grant parents and grandparents strength and guidance during this ordeal. In Jesus’ name....Amen.
933
posted on
07/16/2013 10:07:09 PM PDT
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: xzins
xzins, post 931 was meant for you.
We are listening, xzinz - and at this very moment, praying for your precious grandson.
It is so painful, to see a little soul suffer with such a horrible disease.
Your grandson, his parents, your entire family are being prayed for, and prayers will continue for the little boy you love so much!
934
posted on
07/16/2013 10:07:17 PM PDT
by
yorkie
To: daniel1212
"Yet as Scripture is not the supreme authority for Catholics, and actual Scripture warrant is not necessary for her doctrines, thus she teaches traditions of men as doctrines, and then abuses Scripture by trying to support her tradition by it, but which at least makes her deception more manifest." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The Supreme Authority for Catholics is Almighty God.
Jesus Christ began to build His Church before one word of the New Testament was written down, and that Church obviously did NOT have a New Testament to use as an authority at that time. The Supreme Authority for the Church that Jesus Christ built was always Almighty God. Right from the very beginning of the Church that Jesus Christ founded, the Holy Spirit was guiding the Church in her teachings before one word of the New Testament was written down, and the Holy Spirit has been guiding the Church in her teachings ever since, just like Jesus Christ solemnly promised.
That Catholic Church which Jesus Christ built is NOT based on the traditions of men -- that is utterly false, no matter how many times you choose to repeat it. The Catholic Church which Jesus Christ built is based on the Holy Teachings of God, given to men.
The Scriptures are very important, but they only contain a small smidgen of what God has done, and what God continues to do.
John 21:25 explicitly states that Jesus did many other things that were NOT written down, and that all the books in the world would likely not be able to hold all of them.
God also continues to do many other new things all the time, which are not recorded in the Scriptures. (For example, He gave you your life, and that is not recorded in the Bible.)
You also said in an earlier post (#788) that Patrick Madrid tries to sound like an evangelical by quoting so much scripture. With all due respect, BALONEY! Rather, Patrick Madrid sounds like a Catholic. Having gone to many thousands of different Protestant services for many years, I can tell you without a doubt that Catholics typically hear many more readings from the Scriptures in their Masses than Protestants do in their typical services.
If you don't believe that, I urge you to try an experiment for about two or three weeks. The Daily Mass on EWTN is run live at 8 AM Eastern time (then usually rerun at 12 noon and 7PM). To watch it online, go to the EWTN web site here:
EWTN Web Site
then highlight the word "Television" at the top of that page, then move down to highlight "Live TV - English", then over to "LIve Streams", "United States English", and click on that. A window pops open which will show the live (or rerun) Mass.
Watch those Daily Masses for about two or three weeks, and write down all the explicit Biblical texts hich are read during the Masses. (Don't worry about all the many other additional Bibical references that are made during each Mass, but only the explicit Bible texts given and read during each Mass.)
Be completely honest with yourself when you assess those Bible readings. (Remember that dishonesty comes from Satan.)
(By the way, that is only the tip of the iceberg as far as the Catholic use of Bible readings every single day -- some time do a Google search on "Liturgy of the Hours" and "Catholic Bible Study", and "Lectio Divina", just for extended starters.)
I have to sign off now, but I hope you get a chance tomorrow to start watching those Daily Masses, so you can see for yourself, and not keep repeating your many erroneous statements, over and over and over again.
Goodnight.
935
posted on
07/16/2013 10:10:37 PM PDT
by
Heart-Rest
(Good reading ==> | ncregister.com | catholic.com | ewtn.com | newadvent.org |)
To: Persevero
No, the method Saul used was forbidden by God and Jewish Law.
936
posted on
07/16/2013 10:26:54 PM PDT
by
arthurus
(Read Hazlitt's EcomT"ics In One Lesson ONLINE http://steshaw.org/econohttp://www.fee.org/library/det)
To: narses
Oh Lord....please, share Your strength and offer Your comfort to this little one, those who love him, and to the medical team.
Dear Lord, hear our humble prayer.
Tatt
937
posted on
07/16/2013 10:29:04 PM PDT
by
thesearethetimes...
("Courage, is fear that has said its prayers." Dorothy Bernard)
To: aMorePerfectUnion
1. Straw man argument about being dead.
2. Departed saints is a better term.Dead saints" is the terminology of many Protestants who argue against the Communion of Saints. The author used that so that those making that argument would recognize that he was answering that argument.
4. The Bible does not show an example of praying or talking to a departed saint
Elijah and Moses conversed with Jesus Christ at the Transfiguration. That is in the piece, too, but you have to read past the first couple of lines.
938
posted on
07/16/2013 10:32:00 PM PDT
by
arthurus
(Read Hazlitt's EcomT"ics In One Lesson ONLINE http://steshaw.org/econohttp://www.fee.org/library/det)
To: reg45
In the currently understood use of the word, no.Saints are souls that are in Heaven. In the apostolic times use of the word, believing Christians were the saints as opposed to the pagans. Some Protestants use the word in the older sense and that is fine, too.
939
posted on
07/16/2013 10:36:22 PM PDT
by
arthurus
(Read Hazlitt's EcomT"ics In One Lesson ONLINE http://steshaw.org/econohttp://www.fee.org/library/det)
To: boatbums
“what the Bible said concerning the nature of Almighty God”
What edition did they cite?
940
posted on
07/16/2013 10:58:00 PM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
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