How John Paul II Restored Liturgical Sanity

Crisis Magazine ^ | July 8, 2013 | Jeffrey Tucker

[bboop]

Oooh, where is your parish with the wonderful music? I will search it out if I am ever near. It sounds heavenly.

[ebb tide]

Abuses Encouraged by John Paul II says Former Master of Ceremonies

The beatified John Paul II could be named as the patron Saint of liturgical abuses.

(kreuz.net, Vatikan) The beatified John Paul II († 2005) had expressly desired the abuses which were celebrated before him in Pontifical Offices.

This is what the organizer of the abuses and many years Master of Ceremonies, Archbishop Piero Marini (69) wrote in his new book, "IO sono un Papa amabile. Gioanni Paolo II" -- "I am a loveable Pope. John Paul II."

Paolo Rodari reported this on May 7. on his [often excellent] website 'Palazzo Apostolico'

For every trip an actual theater Mass

Rodari reminds of the neo-Conservative theory, where the then Master of Ceremonies, Marini, is supposed to have incited a "spectacle coterminous with the Papal Liturgies" against the will of Pope John Paul II.

This justification is energetically contradicted by Archbishop Marini in his book.

The Conciliar Blessed had encouraged him to insert more cultic heather practices in the Papal Masses -- wrote Msgr Marini.

John Paul II wanted to break through the "rigor" of Papal Masses.

Archbishop Marinini reports that John Paul II wanted a "new Liturgy for every trip".

The Conciliar Blessed is said to have turned to Msgr Marini saying with praise: "beautiful, beautiful."

The Cardinal Found the Legs for Angelic Dancing

Archibishop Marini mentions even a risque moment, which had occurred at a Papal Mass in 1991.

At that time the Archbishop wanted a dance with the Archbishop of San Luis Maranao in North Eastern Brazil, Msgr Paulo Eduardo Andrade Ponte († 2009) during a Papal Mass.

At the announcement of the Gospel two dancers stepped forth, whose robes were blown high by a sudden wind.

After the Mass the Cardinals discussed in the Sacristy if this spectacle was actually necessary.

On that the then president of the Brazilian Bishops Conference, Msgr Luciano Mendez de Almeida († 2006) had answered that he had seen "the angel of the Resurrection" in the two dancers -- so says Msgr Marini.

[Cronos]

your opinion is valuable, and, I must point out, very politely stated, thank you!

None of us "get a vote" per se -- the words used in the new (old) version are more precise. For instance, one with the Father can lead to the errors of monophyticsm or monotelism or patripassionism, while consubstantial with the Father is fare more precise (i.e. that Jesus is of one being with the Father but is not the Father wearing a mask)

[Cronos]

The problem, as RJ and OR have pointed out is the ambiguity in language. English in particular can be very ambiguous because of many words with different meanings and also because English lacks much of the grammatical preciseness of other Indo-European tongues

Deviating slightly, but to explain:
1. Gender -- English doesn't differentiate between gender in the noun, verb and pronoun. So, if you tell your wife "I was with the neighbor" it has ambiguity. In Latin and in Slavic languages, the verb and noun change: Byłem z sąsiaką or byłem z sąsiadem -- indicates male or female.

2. Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Locative, Instrumental, Vocative are the "cases" in most Indo-European tongues: the ancient ones like Sanskrit, Latin, Avestani Persian and Greek had most of them and in modern tongues the Baltic and Slavic retain all of these, the German and Romance retain 3 cases and English, despite being a mix of Germanic and Romance has lost all of them except in reference

These give a high degree of precision.

So, Greek and Latin both are far more precise than English, FAR more -- YET, even in those two, there are slight differences: homoousis, (οὐσία,) from which the consubstantialis of Latin derives is different from homoioúsios -- the former means "same" and the latter "similar"

[Cronos]

Nicene Creed

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium. Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri; per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis. Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas. Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.  We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.  We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[FourtySeven]

Point taken, I must say though for myself, the phrase, “one in being with the Father” made it far easier to remember the correct definition of the Trinity (one Being/three Persons). Otherwise, for me, it was easy to confuse it with Oneness.

I do appreciate the greater precision of the new translation though; a word about “and with your spirit”.

These words carry a much greater meaning than the simple phrase, “and also with you”, for when we say the former to the priest, we are praying that the Spirit be with him in a much greater sense, that He may be with the priest and work through he priest in a more powerful way than when the priest blesses us. Indeed it’s a way to further focus our attention on the true focus of the Mass, the Transubstantiation of the bread and wine into His Body and Blood, which is accomplished through the priest (God working through the priest).

A simple reply of “and also with you” kind of deminishes the importance of the priest at Mass, IMO, as if he were just another participant. He’s not. He makes Christ literally present for us. Thus, deserves (and needs) a greater reply than something akin to a post-60’s commune greeting like “same to you dude!”

IMO.

[NYer]

This is what the organizer of the abuses and many years Master of Ceremonies, Archbishop Piero Marini (69) wrote in his new book, "IO sono un Papa amabile. Gioanni Paolo II" -- "I am a loveable Pope. John Paul II."

Before you put any credence in what Marini has written, take a closer look at his own views.

Another Vatican voice backs civil unions for same-sex couples

the then president of the Brazilian Bishops Conference, Msgr Luciano Mendez de Almeida († 2006) had answered that he had seen "the angel of the Resurrection" in the two dancers

Here again, look at the source!! That was in 2006. They are now preparing to welcome Pope Francis. Here is the official setting for the "campus fidei"

This is where Pope Francis will hold vigil with the youth on the evening of July 27, and celebrate the closing Mass of WYD on July 28.

[Ann Archy]

Thanks.....thoughtful and thought provoking....I LIKE IT!!

[FourtySeven]

Thanks and you’re welcome.

[ebb tide]

What’s with the devil’s horns at the “campus fidei”?

[ebb tide]

“Before you put any credence in what Marini has written, take a closer look at his own views.”

Blessed JP II, the Great, had full credence in Marini. Who are you to question a man soon to be declared a saint? Or are you saying the Pope was duped by his Master of Ceremonies for all those years?