Posted on 05/31/2013 2:44:05 PM PDT by NYer
Do our Catholic children and most adults know what these images teach?
All of us know one of the elephants in the room of the Catholic Church. Our religious education programs are not handing on the essence of our Catholic Faith, our parents are befuddled about their role in handing on the faith and the materials we use are vapid or if good do not make an impression on young minds. We are afraid of asking for memorization and thus most don't remember anything they've learned about God and Church other than some niceties and feel good emotions.
I teach each class of our grades 1-6 (we don't have 7th or 8th) each Thursday, rotating classes from week to week. For the last two years I have used Baltimore Catechism #1 as my text book. It is wonderful to use with children and it is so simple yet has so much content. If Catholics, all Catholics, simply studied Baltimore Catechism #1, we would have very knowledgeable Catholics.
These past two years I've used Baltimore Catechism #2 with our adult religious program which we call Coffee and Conversation following our 9:30 AM Sunday Mass, which coincides with our CCD program which we call PREP (Parish Religious Education Program).
This #2 book has more content and is for middle school, but upper elementary school children must have been more capable of more serious content back when this book was formulated and used through the mid 1960's because it is a great book to use with adults and not childish at all. We all use this same book as a supplemental book for the RCIA because it is so clear, nobly simple and chocked full of content!
Yes, there are some adjustments that need to be made to some chapters, but not that many, in light of Vatican II and the new emphasis we have on certain aspects of Church that are not present in the Baltimore Catechism. But these are really minor.
What is more important though is that when the Baltimore Catechism was used through the mid 1960's it was basically the only book that was used for children in elementary and junior high school. It was used across the board in the USA thus uniting all Catholics in learning the same content. There was not, in other words, a cottage industry of competing publishing houses selling new books and different content each year.
The same thing has occurred with liturgical music, a cottage industry of big bucks has developed around the sale of new hymnals, missalettes and new music put on the open market for parishes to purchase. It is a money making scheme.
Why do our bishop allow this to happen in both liturgical music and parish catechesis? The business of selling stuff to parishes and making mega bucks off of it is a scandal that has not be addressed.
In the meantime, our liturgies suffer and become fragmented because every parish uses a different resource for liturgical music and the same is true of religious formation, everyone uses something different of differing quality or no quality at all.
Isn't it time to wake up and move forward with tried and true practices that were tossed out in favor of a consumerist's approach to our faith that has weakened our liturgies, our parishes and our individual Catholics?
Oh no, you didn't.
Your exact words, copied and pasted from post 1,665 were.....
Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? It has a huge percentage of the Bible in it.
It did NOT say a huge percentage of the mass contained the Bible.
Oh no, you didn't.
Your exact words, copied and pasted from post 1,665 were.....
Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? It has a huge percentage of the Bible in it.
It did NOT say a huge percentage of the mass contained the Bible.
Maybe someone isn’t telling you the truth about Catholics.
And we can see who that is right now.
JCB: Yes. God asked. He did not demand.
Luke 1:26-38 26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” 34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”
35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. 36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
Apparently Luke neglected to add that bit of information.
Could you point us to the Scripture that tells us that God asked Mary's permission?
I'm open to suggestions...
This is a real paradox. How can there be free will when the interests of an eternal, omniscient, omnipresent being are at stake? If she had free will, then the possibility, no matter how remote, that she would say no, had to be considered. If the mother of Jesus gave something to the nature of God, then she must be coeternal with God.
I'm just glad they don't burn heretics any more.
Considering that Catholics believe that Jesus blood was Mary's blood and Jesus' flesh was Mary's flesh, and that salvation entered the world through Mary, I'd say among that Catholics, that's a given.
Of course, since Catholic FReepers suffer from the same malady, they can't see it.
WRONG! Even those who walked with Jesus in the flesh DID NOT know Him. Peter is one example - it had to be revealed to Him by The Father.
You can only know JESUS 'by the Spirit'. Something catholics ignore becuase they cannot understand it. Worldly man made teachings make sure of that through deception.
God's Word is Holy Spirit inspired and needs to be spiritually discerned. And that is what GOD teaches - and HE KNOWS how HIS WORD is interpreted - don't ignore what God teaches for 'man's teachings, it doesn't end well.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Much ado about nothing, except the depths some will stoop to fabricate a controversy where none exists. JCB and I did NOT disagree over a matter of theology or doctrine. JCB stated that the Magisterium need not be unanimous in its debates and recommendations to the Pope. My comment was that the Magisterium speaks with one voice. The two statements are not mutually exclusive. The Magisterium composed of the living Episcopacy of the Church and bound by the pronouncements of previous popes studies issues and presents its findings to the Pope who then, after prayer and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit declares.
Yeah...
We just have flame wars now...
So then it's because you are having another meltdown? As something sparked it that the need was so great to attack me. Truth does that.
Let's try it again...Catholics are committed to Rome/man and their teachings.
Indeed, as the interpreter requires often interpretation to varying degrees, and often lacking precision, perspicuity or comprehensiveness, then even within the parameters of RC teaching the RC has great liberty to interpret Scripture as he/she sees fit to support Rome, as well as things like EENS with the variations we have seen here.
Well, then you must have been absent those days because as it has been addressed and has shown to be the case that along with the daily readings which do address the entire New Testament on a three year cycle and much of the Old Testament, every word, every object and every gesture of the entire Mass is directly from Scripture. Even the order of the Mass from the Introit to the Dismissal is a celebration of the life of Jesus from the Annunciation to the Ascension. .
Peace be with you.
And so instead (for English readers) you would recommend all or one of the revisions of the RC Bible for America, the NAB, or the Jerusalem Bible, or the DRB?
Three suggestions:
First, search the Scriptures enough to make an early call as to which "truth" is more important/unchangeable/etc. Call it a "trump card." For some, it's God's sovereignty. For others, it is man's free will. In your mind, whichever it is, that doctrine trumps the understanding of all others. For example, IF "the interests of an eternal, omniscient, omnipresent being" can/does override a created individual's operation of free will, THEN God's sovereignty is your "trump card". In that example, no matter how you address the question of mankind's ability to make good choices, etc., you would have concluded in advance that God's sovereignty somehow is able to override whatever level of ability God has given to mankind. Or vise-versa if you conclude that free will is inviolable, etc. etc.
Second, decide for yourself what amount of "right doctrine" is required to have a saving faith. For some people, even the slightest doctrinal misstep by others is enough to cast them into hell, or (as one FReeper puts it) makes them into "faux Christians" who deserve nothing but criticism and belittlement. For others, professing a belief in an undefined being named "Jesus Christ" is sufficient to save them, or as Homer Simpson puts it, "I'm normally not a praying man but if you're up there, please save me Superman!" I myself believe there is an "outmost circle" that defines who are my fellow believers in Christ. Whatever that defining standard is, try to remain consistent with how you apply it to those who disagree with you on theological issues.
Third, IF you believe that some doctrines are not neccesary for a "saving faith", try to keep those theological discussions within the academic realm. Acknowledge your sparring partner as a fellow believer at the outset of, and during, those discussions. See if you can ascertain what your opponents's "trump card doctrine" is, and recognize that IF you believed in the same trump card, you PROBABLY would come to the same conclusion as they have. Do your best to reach across the aisles, when possible.
I'm just glad they don't burn heretics any more.
Keep thanking God for that. You never know - given the anger sometimes expressed on the Religion Forum, that may change!
"The church is to be a loving church in a dying culture. How, then, is the dying culture going to consider us? Jesus says, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." In the midst of the world, in the midst of our present culture, Jesus is giving a right to the world. Upon His authority He gives the world the right to judge whether you and I are born-again Christians on the basis of our observable love toward all Christians."
-- Francis A. Schaeffer, The Mark of The Christian, quoting John 13:34-35The Mark of the Christian, part 1
The Mark of the Christian, part 2
The Mark of the Christian, part 3
Toward a Theological Ethic for Internet Discourse
Rules of Engagement for Catholics on the Internet
Do try to obey God. God's WORD is the Final Authority and His Spirit is the Teacher.
No man is infallible and lifting man to God status is fulfilling.. ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’
And Rome doesn't stop there, they 'use' Mary, also, saying she has part in the salvation of man. Rome is satan's helper.
BWA HAHAHAHA!
I must have missed that thread.
I know the government officially recognizes Catholics as not full citizens of the United States,
So now it's time for a 'pity me' party? Not too obvious how you 'only see catholics' as part of that group. Yet, Rome plays patty-cake with the gov't on 'illegal immigration' and that's just one area that they do.
but c’mon, think for yourself
Catholics NEED to do that instead of being led around by man!
The problem is that you’re looking at what Tertullian wrote with a modern mind set and even the Protestant Scholar JND Kelly disagrees with you because of this...
“YET WE SHOULD BE CAUTIOUS ABOUT INTERPRETING SUCH EXPRESSIONS IN A MODERN FASHION. According to ancient modes of thought a mysterious relationship existed between the thing symbolized and its symbol, figure or type; the symbol in some sense WAS the thing symbolized. Again, the verb -repraesentare-, in Tertullian’s vocabulary [Cf. ibid 4,22; de monog. 10], retained its original significance of ‘to make PRESENT.’
“All that his language really suggests is that, while accepting the EQUATION of the elements with the body and blood, he remains conscious of the sacramental distinction between them [as do Catholics today — see the Catechism, paragraphs 1333ff].
“In fact, he is trying, with the aid of the concept of -figura-, to rationalize to himself the apparent contradiction between (a) the dogma that the elements are NOW Christ’s body and blood, and (b) the empirical fact that for sensation they remain bread and wine.” (JND Kelly, EARLY CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES, page 212)
From http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num29.htm
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