Posted on 05/24/2013 2:25:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith
LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists.
However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ.
Francis based his homily on the message of Christ to his disciples taken from the Gospel of Mark. Francis delivered his message by sharing a story of a Catholic who asked a priest if atheists were saved by Christ.
"They complain," Francis said, "If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good." He explained that Jesus corrected them, "Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good."
The disciples, Pope Francis explained, "were a little intolerant," closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that "those who do not have the truth, cannot do good." "This was wrong... Jesus broadens the horizon." Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation."
"Even them, everyone, we all have the duty to do good, Pope Francis said on Vatican Radio.
"Just do good" was his challenge, "and we'll find a meeting point."
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...
Yep
I thought Stu once said he was born Jewish and rejected that?
He’s our new Murrays Mom
“Of course its your say so, or you wouldn’t say it so much.”
He agrees with the scripture. Please don’t talk about matters you are ignorant about. If you are a heathen of some kind, go and be a heathen, but leave Christianity to those who believe it. If you think we are wrong and still want to comment, comment using a quote from the scripture. Don’t just sit there and say ignorant stuff like “of course it’s your say soooo!”
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Galatians 4:4-6)
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." (Romans 8:14-15)
But, shouldn't the Pope be expected to speak the truth - at least how Catholicism defines it? After all, he's the head of the Catholic Church and should be sure that the "stuff" he preaches comports with all Catholic doctrines. I don't think it is unreasonable that, when he speaks to the public, what he states should not contradict what the Catholic Church professes to believe. Granted, not everything he says is "infallible", but should it not at least be impeccable?
I don’t think you are wrong or right
Please do not tell me what or what not to comment on
No never said that
I think I probably have...
...along with a bunch of other stuff; too.
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Is Peter the 'rock'?
As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'
BEFORE the following verses came along.....
NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. NIV Luke 6:48
He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
4. As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him-- 5. you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 7. Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, " 8. and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS??? NIV Genesis 49:24-25 24. But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel, 25. because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb. NIV Numbers 20:8
"Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink." NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior. NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth. NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
30. How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up? 31. For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede. NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God. NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
2. He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; 3. my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me. NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
"The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior! NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
3. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God, 4. he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.' NIV Psalms 18:2
The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. NIV Psalms 18:31
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? NIV Psalms 18:46
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior! NIV Psalms 19:14
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. NIV Psalms 28:1
To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
NIV Psalms 31:2-3
2. Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me. 3. Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me. NIV Psalms 42:9
I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?" NIV Psalms 62:2
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken. NIV Psalms 62:6
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken. NIV Psalms 62:7
My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge. NIV Psalms 71:3
Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress. NIV Psalms 78:35
They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer. NIV Psalms 89:26
He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.' NIV Psalms 92:14-15
14. They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green, 15. proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him." NIV Psalms 95:1
Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation. NIV Psalms 144:1
Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. NIV Isaiah 17:10
You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress. NIV Isaiah 26:4
Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal. NIV Isaiah 30:29
And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel. NIV Isaiah 44:8
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." NIV Habakkuk 1:12 O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish. |
And now you know the Biblical position!
Yeah...
there are LOTS of ‘fools’ found throughout the Bible.
But there are SO many who wish they did!
What shall I do?
I’ll stick with the scripture over your random links, thanks.
The links are discussions and studies of the subject. Kinda what we are doing. I just felt I didn’t need to re-invent the wheel so I offered those.
I was discussing this with a member of my own church, using scripture to argue my case, and he finally grabbed his large King James bible, held it up and said, “I choose to believe what this bible says.” My response was, “You mean your interpretation of what it says.” His face got really red and the discussion was over.
This subject is kinda like the evolution debate. Both sides are a religion but only one admits it. Both of us are getting our information from the same bible. Where we differ is regarding what scripture we choose to take at face value and what scripture we choose NOT to take at face value.
You argue that any time the bible is interpreted to phrases like “forever” that it means the equivalent of time with no end, even though I can show scripture that proves that is not what it means. Meanwhile, I argue that any time the bible uses the word “death” it means something ends and dies. Both can be argued to one degree or another.
But regarding eternal torment, although I believed it for most of my Christian life (since 1981 until about two years ago) I never really studied it and always had a hard time reconciling it to my loving - and just - God. The seeds of my change of heart were being planted for most of that time and it finally came to a head. I then actually studied the subject, looking at the relevant scripture and how it related to the contextual scripture as well as the rest of the bible and the personality of God.
I now believe that much of the confusion is that we don’t really understand what “eternity” really is. It is pretty clear that it is not merely time never ending because time itself is a part of our world.
Also, I started a new job about 8 months ago where I commute 2.5 hours round trip of country road (no traffic) driving and listen to the entire bible in very large chunks over and over again. It has given me new perspective on a LOT of things.
My God lets the punishment fit the crime. It’s an Ecclesiastes thing. Those that accept Christ will receive eternal life. Those that don’t will be resurrected at the great white throne and at that point WILL suffer the “second death”. They will be no more. And they will stay that way, “forever and ever”. For those “not God”, it will be as though they never existed. And God says he has the ability to forget, so it will be the same for Him.
This is not scripture, for my word is not scripture. It is simply what I believe from serious study of the subject an re-reading God’s word with that perspective. It seriously opened up scripture and clarified both God’s love and His sense of justice and dealing with the sins of man.
But opinions vary.
Thank you for posting the passage from Romans.
I think there will be a lot of surprises at the Last Judgment.
Correct.
Abraham’s Bosom, also known as “Paradise’ for Old Testament believers. Prior to the Perfect Sacrifice, no human could enter into the presence of God at His dwelling place in heaven, so they were provided Paradise, a compartment of Hades, the underworld, not to be confused with other portions of the underworld, the Torments, Tartarus, The Abyss and later the Lake of Fire.
Thank you. I’ve reading these posts and all I see is what appears to be a bunch of Christians ganging up on one poster.
“I was discussing this with a member of my own church, using scripture to argue my case, and he finally grabbed his large King James bible, held it up and said, “I choose to believe what this bible says.” My response was, “You mean your interpretation of what it says.” His face got really red and the discussion was over.”
You’re free to try that lame argument with me, but I assure you it won’t work.
“You argue that any time the bible is interpreted to phrases like “forever” that it means the equivalent of time with no end, even though I can show scripture that proves that is not what it means. “
With that kind of logic, then the joy of the saints is also only temporal, since “eternal” or “forever” no longer means what it means. Of course, it’s all irrelevant, since it’s quite clear that their torment will be for ever and ever, not their ceasing to exist being forever.
You’re free to show all this scripture you claim proves your argument, for the second time I’ve asked.
“My God lets the punishment fit the crime.”
So does mine. Your one sin is worthy of eternal damnation by the perfect and Holy God who cannot and will not suffer your presence in His Kingdom.
“I don’t think you are wrong or right”
Huh? What do I care about your stance of indifference? Is that really worth letting me know about? You go be indifferent, and I’ll stick with understanding what the words “those who believe not are condemned already” mean.
I realize God may save who He will. But what the Pope is discussing is the rare exception.
To paraphrase the Catechism, God is not bound by his sacraments but the Catholic Church knows no other way to salvation but through them. (Which means it would be through Christ.)
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