Posted on 04/29/2013 4:18:02 AM PDT by markomalley
I'm sorry, I thought you had attended a reputable seminary and were familiar with philosophical terms and concepts as they apply to Christian theology. I never thought you to be among those who believes that in order to be Christian one also had to be anti-science and anti-intellectual. As we are commanded to love God with all of our hearts and souls, so too are we commanded to love Him with all of our minds. Pushing our knowledge and understanding of God and His Word to the limits of our mental abilities is required to satisfy that command. God, whose nature is expressed in the perfect knowledge, order and harmony of the Logos does not require His creation to "dumb it down" and dismiss the gifts of knoledge and wonder.
Please allow me to explain "efficient cause" in simpler terms. In Thoministic theology, cause is explained in terms of Aristotle’s four causal classifications; “(1) the formal cause, which determines what a thing is, (2) the material cause, or that out of which it is made, (3) the efficient cause, by what a thing is made, and (4) the final cause, the ‘end’ for which it is made.” To understand the concept of Salvation being the efficient cause of (good) works it is useful to make a comparison of Salvation and gravity. When an object falls, the consequences of that fall, whether damaging or desirable, have nothing to do with the cause of the fall. The weight of the object and height from which it fell do not create or change gravity, they only affect the consequences of the fall. Objects fall because of, and in a sense proceed from gravity. Similarly true corporeal and spiritual works of mercy proceed from Salvation.
As for the concept of retaining Grace, would you have preferred that I use the Catholic terms of Sanctifying and Actual Grace. I did not do so because in these discussions the use of Catholic terms receives an a priori dismissal.
Peace be with you
Faith that doesn't produce any works which are the fruit of it is not saving faith.
What does "even the demons believe --and shudder" mean to you?
That there is an intellectual assent belief that acknowledges the facts but is not trust or receiving Christ. The demons KNOW that God is real and exists, but even that level of knowing isn't saving faith, as they are not saved. They shudder because they know God's power and what's coming.
What do you mean by "faith alone"?
Salvation is by faith only. There are several places in Scripture where it states that Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. That occurred before the sign of circumcision and before the Law was given.
The problem is that one can have an intellectual assent kind of faith, belief that God does exist, and still be trusting in yourself to gain eternal life by such as baptism, confession, communion, works of righteousness, etc.
The saving faith kind of faith transforms the heart and works flow from that. The danger is that someone can have the intellectual assent belief and acknowledge God and then decide to add works to it, deciding that if they add works to faith, then they're good.
The minute doing anything other than repenting and confessing to God is considered necessary to attain salvation, the person is depending on that thing instead of the finished work of Christ on the cross.
The only thing that saves is forgiveness from God. Works, baptism, communion, etc, don't make one iota of difference in regard to being saved.
Jesus gave the example of the pharisee and the tax collector praying outside the Temple and it was the tax collector who went away justified.
Basically, becoming saved is throwing yourself on the mercy of the court and asking God to forgive you and save you. The debt that we owe, the penalty for our sin, was paid in full by Jesus' death.
When we trust that alone as being adequate for God to forgive us and save us, we are exercising faith and God will honor that and save us. He adopts us into His family and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, the day He redeems us, the day we die.
I know that Catholics don't believe that their salvation is sure yet but Scripture teaches that when we accept Christ and receive His forgiveness, we are saved NOW. The spiritual reality of our salvation exists NOW, even though we are yet in these physical bodies finishing out living the life God has planned for us.
Salvation doesn't begin when we die. It begins when we repent and confess, turn to God and cry out for His mercy and to save us.
If Jesus dwells in your heart through faith, you don't need to go somewhere to be in His presence.
If you think you have to go somewhere to be in His presence, it's a pretty good bet that He's NOT in your heart through faith, otherwise you'd know it.
Ephesians 3:14-19 14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Romans 8:9-17 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Galatians 3
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
You were given freewill to enable you to make your own judgment calls, as was I. You are free to reject the Catholic teachings on this and any other matter of faith, as am I. I have completely entrusted my life to Jesus and Jesus dwells in me. I am at peace that my beliefs in Him are true. I will continue to attend Mass, partake of His Body and Blood and when possible visit Him in adoration.
I wish you the peace that I have found in Him
That is a false characterization of my statements. I have clarified them multiple times, yet for some reason they keep getting misrepresented so as to appear to comport with a hackneyed old (and false) anti-Catholic treatise. Works are not necessary to "keep" Salvation. If you sincerely want to discuss this issue please stick to the facts.
Peace be to you.
You've clarified nothing. Works are not necessary to "keep" Salvation. If you sincerely want to discuss this issue please stick to the facts.
Works are not necessary to "keep" Salvation. If you sincerely want to discuss this issue please stick to the facts.
Then no one needs to be baptized, go to confession, take communion, get last rites, do good works or works of charity or whatever you want to call them, correct? And then we can expect to see Catholics quit taking James 2:24 out of context, correct?
Corporeal and Spiritual Works of Mercy proceed from Salvation. Their absence is proof that Salvation too is absent.
#154:
Works are not an input to the process of Salvation, but rather a necessary response to Salvation. Where they are absent so too is Salvation.
SOMEone’s brain is just a wee bit over compartmentalized...
Not necessarily because it depends on who's doing the judging and what standard they are using. And just who decides what those are?
Does the Catholic church have a laundry list of those as well for people to check off to make sure they're good?
What about someone like Lot? Peter called him *righteous*. Hardly a term I'd apply to him. And the Pharisees kept the Law to a *T* and Jesus called them whitewashed tombs.
Does it make Catholics feel better to be able to pigeon hole people?
What the biggest indicator of a new heart and eternal life is a changed life. Not just a bunch of works that someone can add and fool themselves into thinking they're saved because they're doing them.
There is a difference between an act done to benefit oneself and acts done strictly for the good of others, even if it is the exact same act. We can fool other people and at times can even fool ourselves, but we cannot fool God. We cannot judge when these Works of Mercy are genuine, and to the recipient it doesn't really matter, however it is readily apparent when they are absent. Where they are absent so too is Salvation.
There is a reason that the Church feeds, shelters, nurses, educates, and serves more people daily than all other organizations combined.
Peace be with you
Agree. Works are concomitant with faith.
That there is an intellectual assent belief that acknowledges the facts but is not trust or receiving Christ. The demons KNOW that God is real and exists, but even that level of knowing isn't saving faith, as they are not saved. They shudder because they know God's power and what's coming.
Agree.
What do you mean by "faith alone"?
Salvation is by faith only.
This is what is confusing to Catholics, because this seems like a direct contradiction of what you just said.
"Faith" can mean simple intellectual assent, or "saving faith." I assume that you mean saving faith, with its concomitant good works. If faith is defined that way, then Catholics can agree.
The problem is that one can have an intellectual assent kind of faith, belief that God does exist, and still be trusting in yourself to gain eternal life...
So far, Catholics can agree. Pelagianism is condemned by the Church.
...by such as baptism, confession, communion,
OK. Understand that Catholics believe that the reception of Baptism (John 3:5), Confession (John 20:23) and Communion (John 6:51) are normative for salvation, since Christ and the Church command their reception.
Nevertheless, the Church teaches that God is not bound by His Sacraments, and salvation is possible without their reception, under certain conditions.
The saving faith kind of faith transforms the heart and works flow from that.
That is the Catholic position.
The danger is that someone can have the intellectual assent belief and acknowledge God and then decide to add works to it, deciding that if they add works to faith, then they're good.
Yes. That describes Pelagianism, which the Church condemns. Everything is grace.
The minute doing anything other than repenting and confessing to God is considered necessary to attain salvation, the person is depending on that thing instead of the finished work of Christ on the cross.
But couldn't repentence and confession be considered a work? Regardless, again, this seems to contradict your previous position, that faith and works are concomitant. If we don't do good works, if we sin, rejecting God's Commmandments, strictly speaking, we cannot attain heaven.
To Catholics, faith and works are two sides of the same coin.
The only thing that saves is forgiveness from God.
Which is impossible without grace. Grace is foremost. We cannot ask for forgiveness without grace.
Works, baptism, communion, etc, don't make one iota of difference in regard to being saved.
If by "works," you mean performing deeds solely to demonstrate that we are saved, then Catholics can agree.
The necessity of the Sacraments is addressed above.
Basically, becoming saved is throwing yourself on the mercy of the court and asking God to forgive you and save you. The debt that we owe, the penalty for our sin, was paid in full by Jesus' death.
Christ paid our debt. Certainly.
But we can accept Christ one day, and reject Him the next (like Peter), either explicitly, or by sinning against God.
For Catholics, salvation is not a one-time, once-and-for-all event. We must work out our salvation, like St. Paul. It is possible to move into and out of a state of grace by sinning and repentence/forgiveness, since we deny our faith when we sin gravely.
By their fruit you will know them.
When we trust that alone as being adequate for God to forgive us and save us, we are exercising faith and God will honor that and save us. He adopts us into His family and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, the day He redeems us, the day we die.
OK, this is a point of disagreement. Salvation can be lost and regained.
God cuts off every branch that bears no fruit. John 15:1-5
I know that Catholics don't believe that their salvation is sure
We can be reasonably sure, but not certain.
"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall." 1 Cor 10:12
..yet but Scripture teaches that when we accept Christ and receive His forgiveness, we are saved NOW.
Yet we can lose it by sinning, because for Catholics, one cannot sin, i.e., deliberately disobey God, and claim to have true faith in God. And nothing unclean can enter heaven.
Salvation doesn't begin when we die. It begins when we repent and confess, turn to God and cry out for His mercy and to save us.
Catholics agree with that.
beliefs in Him? Who is Jesus? Jesus IS THE WORD. NO one can be under 'man made teachings/doctrines' - that you so vehemently defend - and be correct in saying 'my beliefs in Him are true'.
"A double minded man is unstable in all he does." James 1:8
"No one can serve two masters...." Matt 6:24
I wish you the peace that I have found in Him
It's like some guy or girl saying, 'I love my spouse' when they are on their way to meet another lover.
Isaiah 29:13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.
You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: "'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.'" Matt 15:7-9
You hypocrites! - Do you feel the love? Do you see the fruit of the Spirit?
Your words need to be repeated: We can fool other people and at times can even fool ourselves, but we cannot fool God.
Amazing how some take their life for eternity so lightly and/or on man made teachings - how deliberately evil they are to deceive so greatly. Even Jesus' words and warnings don't register with them!
You DO have a way with handing out the compliments! My knees are knocking!
WRT my experience at Bible college... it had more to do with grasping the truths God revealed in Holy Scripture and less with all the various and sundries ways philosophers, theologians and intellectuals - pagan or otherwise - concocted the means to fathom what the human mind is incapable of doing. When mere words were not adequate, many simply redefined words and used them in whatever form they chose. If anyone thinks for one moment that the highest level of thinking a man could achieve could in anyway come close to really knowing God, he deceives himself. This does NOT mean, as you imply, that we have to "dumb-down" ourselves to please Him. No, it just means we shouldn't pridefully assert we can be superior to others just because we can turn a phrase and sound smart. God HATES pride, BTW.
As for the concept of retaining Grace, would you have preferred that I use the Catholic terms of Sanctifying and Actual Grace. I did not do so because in these discussions the use of Catholic terms receives an a priori dismissal.
No matter what terms you use, it doesn't change the truth that you seem to be ignoring. Ludwig Ott talked about this doctrine in his Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:
The elevation to the state of grace is indicated by the intimacy between God and the progenitors of the human race in Paradise. A scriptural proof is provided by St. Paul's teaching on the Redemption. The Apostle teaches that Christ, the second Adam, restored what the first Adam had lost, the state of holiness and justice. But if he had lost it, he must previously have received it.
As regards the time of man's elevation to the state of grace, most theologians, including St. Thomas and his school, are of the opinion that the first men were created in the state of sanctifying grace. Petrus Lombardus and the Franciscan school, on the other hand, teach that the first human beings on their creation received only the preternatural gifts of integrity, and were required to prepare themselves with the help of actual grace for the reception of sanctifying grace. The Council of Trent has deliberately left the question undecided.
So, please spare me the lesson on the differences between "actual" and "sanctifying" grace. No matter how it gets phrased, it is unmistakable that Rome teaches that, although Christ’s death remains necessary to salvation, it is not sufficient and human merit is indispensable. THAT, my FRiend, will always set us apart in the understanding of the doctrine of justification and salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. I know God's word too well to accept Rome's false and accursed gospel.
Or a bunch of works that someone can add and fool themselves into thinking they will be saved because they keep on doing them.
Galatians 3 addresses that so beautifully that one has to wonder if God had it put in there just for addressing that error of Catholicism.
In context is referring to FALSE PROPHETS.
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