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Now if we can demonstrate from the New Testament that there are really three Persons, and if we can demonstrate that the three Persons are all called God, and if we can demonstrate that there is only ONE God, then we are driven to only one possible conclusion:

Things equal to the same thing, are equal to each other, and the three Persons are the one God.

You don’t have to be a great logician. You don’t have to be a great theologian. You don’t have to go to college. You don’t have to even graduate from high school to think that one through. Think about it for a moment.

If you can show that there are three Persons in the New Testament, and if you can show that these three Persons are called God (or Jehovah to accomodate the Witnesses), and if we can show there is only One God, then the three Persons ARE the one God. And the argument ends at that point. If the New Testament says that there are three Persons, and if the New Testaments says that these three Persons are all called Jehovah, and if there is only one Jehovah, then the three Persons are the One God, and the doctrine of the Trinity is true.

Related threads:
Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity
On the Errors of the Trinity, by Michael Servetus

1 posted on 04/17/2013 12:29:08 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy
"orthodox Christianity has dealt with the issue of the Trinity for HUNDREDS of years...

Around 2000 years, actually.

3 posted on 04/17/2013 12:49:34 PM PDT by fidelis (Zonie and USAF Cold Warrior)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta; F15Eagle; .45 Long Colt; Buddygirl; Former Fetus; Bockscar; Graybeard58; JLLH; ..

Baptist ping

4 posted on 04/17/2013 12:54:49 PM PDT by WKB ( Remember "Bush Lied and People Died" Now it's "People died and Obama Lied")
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To: Alex Murphy
From "The Athanasian Creed"; best summary of the Trinity ever:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved. "

5 posted on 04/17/2013 1:01:03 PM PDT by fidelis (Zonie and USAF Cold Warrior)
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To: Alex Murphy

If you want to read a great short book on the subject of the Trinity try “Delighting in the Trinity: An Introduction to the Christian Faith”, by Michael Reeves.

We are going to use it in our small group discussion.

6 posted on 04/17/2013 1:36:51 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: Alex Murphy

Dr. Jakes is long on words and rather short on understanding the material he’s attempting to explain.

Enough with the videos, doc, back to the books!

7 posted on 04/17/2013 1:46:02 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: Alex Murphy

I have studied and read much on the Trinity, because I have some relative in the “oneness” movement.

I come from a Baptist background, and have always believed in the Trinity.

However, over the course of 10 years, I investigated this (I like doing my own work and reading others rather than relying on the opinions of others, essentially I “check facts”). That’s why my handle is BereanBrain. The Bereans were commended for checking the scriptures to see if what even the Apostles said was true (concerning the Gospel).

That being said, there are a few camps in those that believe in the Trinity, and those that don’t. Let me see if I can summarize them.

1) We believe in the Trinity because we were taught it. These folks typically stick on the English meanings of words, and Church history, and just believe, without thinking too much about the implications. The individuals often agree with the belief that the Trinity is something you can’t understand, but you may be able to comprehend the overall idea. Or that you can’t prove the Trinity. This is typical of “reformed” believers.

2) We believe we can understand the Trinity. See Romans 1:20. Essentially, the these people believe two things. (1) God is not like man, rather man is a image of God and (2) that God’s divine nature can be seen in his creation. The second point implies we can understand God by the things he has created. The people typically believe they understand the Trinity and that there really are no inconsistencies with 3 in 1 (Triune) existence.

3) Those that do not believe the Trinity. These people generally object to the idea of three “persons”. Typically like #1 (orthodoxy based believers) they examine the words instead of the meanings and implications and therefore object to the “threeness” of God.

I happen to have originally belonged to group 1, and now group.

So let’s examine the problem: Can we know the answer?
YES! Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse

So this says the NATURE of God’s existence EVEN the Godhead — CAN be understood! The Trinity is NOT A MYSTERY.

Now let’s take scripture at it’s word, and believe what it says. We SHOULD be able to find rough analogs in the creation that demonstrate the nature of God’s existence.

Consider that the ENTIRE UNIVERSE exists as 3 in 1.
That is, Height, Width and Depth (X,Y,Z). If you reduce the dimensions by 1 or 2 (instead of 3) the volume of the universe is ZERO.

Consider that Man has Body, Soul, and Spirit. Does this mean there are three men? NO! Also recall that in man, the flesh has a will, as does the soul, and the Spirit. Does this mean you are three persons? NO! The flesh wars against the soul. God told Adam that the DAY they eat of the fruit they would DIE. Obviously their bodies did not, but their Spirit did. That’s why we are dead without Christ. Before we are saved, the spirit of inequity is at work in us, and after we are believers, the spirit of God resurrects our spirit.

God is Spirit (there are verses to that), and the Holy Spirit is God (there are verses to that) and Jesus is God (there are verses to this effect, as well as Jesus’ words)

The problem is the way we define PERSON. To us, a PERSON IS THE BODY.

8 posted on 04/17/2013 2:13:12 PM PDT by BereanBrain
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To: DouglasKC


10 posted on 04/17/2013 11:22:53 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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