We don’t have to work at all for our salvation. Not one bit.
Posted on 04/09/2013 4:52:50 PM PDT by Colofornian
On April 6, 2013 Grant Palmer, former CES teacher and author of two outstanding books (1 & 2) on issues in the LDS church, released a statement through an anonymous blog about his meeting with mission presidents and a first quorum of the seventy member of the LDS church.
Many many people have called the account fable and rumor. I’ve heard these experiences since last November, and Grant alluded to them (with the mission presidents) in the exmormon foundation conference (where he also mentioned my public resignation) last October (2012). Late Sunday (April 7), Grant reconfirmed to me personally that the account is indeed from him and that the unnamed General Authority (GA) is fully aware of its posting. That does not mean that the opinions given by the mission president or GA are fact. I want it to be very clear that I believe Grant Palmer is of the highest integrity. That some of the claims aren't factual doesn't mean Grant has failed in reporting what he has experienced. It is what it is. Grant told me: "I even find some of it hard to believe. But the report is a chance to shake the tree and see what will come of it..."
Here are some of the statements and claims, bulleted.
Most probable factual claims
Less probable factual claims
Highly speculative
Many of the speculative claims contradict some of the less probable or more probable claims. For example, if the GA never heard one of the apostles ever admit directly to him that they did not believe, then how could he know they talk amongst themselves about the falsity of the church? How could he know how they justify staying with their sure knowledge of its falseness? How could he know they get paid so much hush money? (Well, they could have talked about forgivable loans/gifts without referring to it as hush money.) How could he know they would rather die than to admit it’s false?
For these contradictory reasons, I have place some claims in the speculative group.
However, I have received corroborating statements (rumors) about some of the less probable and some speculative claims.
1) an unnamed source who works with land development told me independently that properties are purchased by the LDS church for apostles through a developer named Ivory Homes LTD.
2) One such home is still listed under Ivory, but presumably will be possessed by Apostle David Bednar soon.
3) A COB employee who handles financial work has seen evidence suggesting payments made for the apostles and others are part of a loan they receive which have no payment schedules correlated (i.e., gifts disguised as loans).
4) MT’s current managing editor has said that Apostle Holland told him that as a new apostle he was at the “beck and call” of senior apostles who took up most of his time when he was a junior.
5) A current exmormon who was being groomed to be a general authority said he was told by a COB employee who worked with him that the employee’s number one role was to get the man “church broke” (the first time the man had heard that term).
6) a COB lawyer affirmed that all high level church employees and volunteers who have access to any financial information at the church sign non-disclosure agreements (NDA).
7) The NDAs are life-long binding agreements whose violations have strict civil penalties and can result in having any and all property used by the employee/worker/volunteer removed immediately; force repayment of all past and current considerations, benefits and perks retained or enjoyed by the employee; revoke any and all associations, contracts (book deals) or other financial arrangements owned, leased or facilitated by church companies; and potentially revoke academic or other honors bestowed upon the employee or family of the employee which are assigned to them through their association with church companies, universities or other institutions.
8) Reported by various persons (former members in public forums) is that family members of high-level authorities in the church receive many financial and vocational opportunities of employment or business dealings because of their father/brother/grandfather’s church ranking.
9) There is legal action occurring abroad against the church which may force the financial information to open further and reveal more about the truth behind these rumors. Stay tuned. (these things take time and legal funds.)
10) Grant Palmer and Tom Phillips have been informed that likely all general authorities receive their second anointing which is another covenant to keep loyal to the church and not reveal its secrets; though not as binding as a legal NDA, it is much like a fraternity of life-long business and political associates who pledge at Ivy League.
11) In June or July, there is rumored to be another foreign GA that will come forward and even in an interview disclose additional information on these matters. Stay tuned.
My thoughts... How likely is it that all the apostles are absolute doubters? Each of them individually may fall in the spectrum of deluded conned man or full-out evil conman. But to believe that they are all deluded says that every last one of them is ridiculously idiotic about the reality they are supposedly defending. Of course, on the flip-side, one can argue, if they're all evil liars, that's a difficult-to-believe conspiracy. Many will argue that such a conspiracy is unlikely to keep a lid on. Conspiracy is a bad word. This is a corporation with corporate trade secrets. These kind of secrets are kept all the time at the top of most large, diverse companies, with the knowledge compartmentalized with those having a need to know. Even CEOs do not know all the trade secrets of the company because such details are far beyond a single human capacity to know. The kind of deals and financial arrangements made in any corporation is held tight. Secrecy in other (government) organizations is obviously not compromised as well.
But is this a criminal conspiracy? Not to the Q12/first presidency.
First of all, these men do not actually control the finances of the church. They're at its mercy. Much of their adult lives have been spun up and dedicated into one system. They are running the front-face of a massive corporation. The machinery is beyond them. But the rock-stardom it gives them reaches far into their extended family. They're all surfing a wave created by doctrinal policy sausage grinders they couldn't themselves stomach if they knew it all.
They have a lot of perks. They have fans. They have trips. They have ranches, hunting preserves, malls, cultural centers and throngs to enjoy. They have books ghost written and command austere obedience on demand. Not only do they already have many more book deals with their own bookstore (deseret book), they have families with prestige in the state of UT that brings about business opportunities for their children and many of their grandchildren.
Not one of them is actually that talented at this late point in life in scriptural scholarship or academic studies. While they may not need it to write a church dismantling tome, they will need the credibility when one of them alone stands, as an old (potentially senile) man, against a unanimous quorum. Without significant credibility, charges of senility will absolutely ring true for 99% of members.
A single book deal exposing it will fall flat. The family of that man will be utterly disgraced. The business they built and reputation they have will be dismantled. Not the church.
Better to stay the course and slowly reform it without upsetting the family apple cart. I'll post more rumors here in this blog as they come to me in the next week...
We don’t have to work at all for our salvation. Not one bit.
Mormons disdain the Cross and "choose the RIGHT" is the substitute mantra...my question is, what is RIGHT about disdain for the Cross of Jesus?
PROVEN to be false? (Yes) ADMITTED to be false? (No)... Lds can't afford to do that without calling their entire "prophet" & general authority hierarchical system into question)
I'm not so much focused on which Mormon is "right or wrong" in what, in as much as we need to be able to discern what religious SYSTEMS produce darkness or light -- & where; which religious SYSTEMS produce error/falsehood or emit truth.
(Elsewise, let's leave 100% of Muslims where they are in their loveless religion; let's leave 100% of Hindus where they are in their merging-into-impersonal-godhood pantheism)
If we applied your worldview of Mormons to ALL world religions & all cults, we'd call ALL the missionaries home. We'd tell people to stop witnessing to those of a different sect or faith. I mean, why bother?
...an organization...brings people to Christ...
You know the most I've heard Christian leaders say positively of the cults & world religions is that God can use them as a "preparation" for the Gospel. If you somehow think, though, that the Mormon gospel & the Christian gospel are one in the same, you are very sadly mistaken.
What is interesting re: your comments is that Mormon leaders have gone on record in saying that they have a different "Christ" than the rest of us...[I'll repost that later on tonight]
And then to put an exclamation point or rather, a 5-digit exclamation point on that, they send out 55-70,000 missionaries to convince Christians that they have a different Christ, a different "Scripture," a different "prophet," and a different "church."
You see, JA, if you were on to something in your comments, the Lds missionary system would reflect that...But guess what? (They don't) Lds missionaries don't treat Christian households any differently than the pagan households they visit.
If they truly respected our Christ, our creeds, our faith, they wouldn't treat us as fodder to feed their ravenous temple ritualism...and that goes BOTH for their door-to-door proselytism as well as their genealogy & baptisms of the dead.
LOL
My point is that all of the established religions have gotten it wrong.
Islam in its present form is so far wrong it has no standing.
People run around stating the Bible as fact, when it just isn’t so.
I’m going to leave you alone. Bother you not further. I do understand all of what you are saying. But WHY do you care what the Mormons do?
I was merely trying to say, "Can't we all just get along?" without saying it.
And got stuff to PROVE it!
Choose the Right or Copy the Prophet?
They HAVE?
How did you come by this knowledge?
You seemed to have IGNORED #112.
the bathroom
Why do you care what we care about?
Have you asked LDS leaders WHY they won't leave Christians alone and stop attempting to lead them away from the True Christ and towards the fabricated Christ of mormonism with 100,000 lying missionaries?
the bathroom
Well, the adherents of all these established religions would agree with you...except for...
(a) They would disagree with you about that assessment of their own religion; and
(b) the Bahai faith which somehow thinks everybody's gotten it right -- even as they are in worldview conflict one with another
So, even as you get all these adherents to agree with you about "everybody else's" "religion" -- how do you know that 100% of them "have gotten it all wrong."
WHY do you care what the Mormons do?
Why did the apostle Paul care what his fellow Jews did? I come from Mormon blood. I care about Lds relatives.
Established religion consorts contorts comports with totalitarianism.
IMO, if you don’t get it right, you get to try again. Because it isn’t up to something else. It is up to you.
You post these articles again and again. And there is a cudgeling coterie compliant concussively.
Perhaps the thing to ask is what is the difference between infinity and eternity?
With the possibility you are an eternal being with the choice of infinity.
And in the infinity the possibility you are living multiple life experiences in this physical construct simultaneously.
‘Shrooms? OxyContin? Toad licking?
....ahhh...thank you god...you are god...to be sooo judgmental...maybe not god...but at least his mouth...or his sword...just kill me...now...before...i...
tagged
Bible isn’t fact as in not true?
Weird
And you know this how?
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