Posted on 03/24/2013 7:29:58 PM PDT by Colofornian
(This was actually a reply to another thread but thought I'd re-post it as its own thread)
I think I was at least partially responsible for approximately 10 friends and my entire family (parents & siblings).
I may have lucked out but some things to note that I think helped me was:
1) I never came across as angry or bitter. I was always nice, friendly and self assured (but not arrogant or condescending)
2) They all knew I was a "good" Mormon so they were all very curious as to why I left when it wasn't because of being offended or sinning.
3) I did my research. I studied up on all the issues both pro & anti. I was able to intelligently convey to them the historical/doctrinal problems with Mormonisim that they weren't aware of.
4) I made it clear to them to them that it wasn't me trying to find an excuse to leave the church but my SINCERE desire for absolute truth which led me out. I started out reading anti books on my mission so that I would know how to DEFEND the church, but I gradually realized that most of the stuff was actually true and that the church couldn't really be defended. My eyes gradually were opened to the fact that the church may not be what it claimed to be.
5) I NEVER ARGUED with them about the issues with the church. I would share the information I learned, give my opinion, but never got in any kind of heated debate or let emotions get in the way. If they came up with some rebuttal, I would give mine and just say "I guess this is just how I see it." If they engage me long enough just the info I provide to them would begin to sink in even if they wouldn't admit it the time. Deep down they knew the things I was saying about the church couldn't be defended. I never "railed" against the church. I explained what things "bothered" me and made me "question" things, but I never came off as "attacking" the church. I would never use the word "cult." I would never call the leaders of the church names. I never used words like "evil." For example I would say something something like,
"I was very troubled by the fact that Joseph Smith would marry young girls and wives of other men. It just doesn't make sense TO ME why God would command this or tolerate it. I PERSONALLY don't believe this is something God would sanction."
instead of saying,
"Joseph Smith was a lying two timing adulterer and pedophile!"
In talking with Mormons, you have to start out slowly with them. You have to soften your words. Be careful not to put them on the defensive. Do NOT make it so they feel like they have to defend the church.
Once they start to grasp the magnitude of the problems, THEN you can start "telling it like it is." You just have to be careful to not come across as too "anti."
6) I never forced my beliefs or knowledge about the church on them. If they wanted to talk, I would share it with them, but I wouldn't "force my anti-Mormonism" on them. I was open and honest about what I believed, but only when they brought it up.
As many posters here have stated before, Mormons generally have to be "ready" for the truth. Many of my friends or family were active TBM's but they were struggling internally with some aspect of Mormonism, so they were more open to talking about the church and it ended up being easier for them to transition out (than say other more entrenched Mormons).
For the entrenched Mormons (I was actually one of them), they have to have the willingness to FULLY study the historical/doctrinal issues. Sharing with them, in just conversation, some "tidbits" of truth probably won't budge them, if they are hardcore. They would need to actually take the TIME and sit down and do some research and read about ALL the problems about the church. However most uber TBM's will get scared after a few pages and stop researching. Just a couple anti-Mormon arguments will merely put a dent in their armor, but if they are ACTUALLY willing to sit down and read a book like The Changing World of Mormonism by the Tanners, then I'd say they actually have very high probability of de-converting.
And in which one will your worthiness place you for eternity?
"Now, it may be contended that a judgment, with some degree of salvation for all, encourages the sinner to pursue his dark ways. Not so. However generous the judgment, it is measured by our works. Our punishment will be the heavy regret that we might have received a greater reward, a higher kingdom, had our lives conformed more nearly to truth. Such remorse may yield keener pain than physical torture." (Understandable Religion, p. 89)
While Widtsoe is careful not to call a heavenly kingdom "hell", he is nonetheless certain that there will be a keen regret for lost opportunities:
"Humanity will be grouped according to their works in three main divisions: Celestial (like the sun), Telestial (like the moon), Terrestrial (like the earth). Within each group there will be many gradations and divisions, until from the lowest to the highest in all groups there will be a series of gradually ascending glories. There can be no talk of a hell, except for the few 'sons of Perdition,' but undoubtedly the regret for lost opportunities will be keen among those in the lower degrees of glory." (Program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 226)
Joseph Fielding Smith, on the other hand, considers the tormenting regret experienced in the bottom two heavenly kingdoms and concludes "in that sense it will be hell":
"This earth will become a celestial kingdom when it is sanctified. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have to go to some other sphere which will be prepared for them. Those who enter the telestial kingdom, likewise will have to go to some earth which is prepared for them, and there will be another place which is hell where the devil and those who are punished to go with him will dwell. Of course, those who enter the telestial kingdom, and those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have the eternal punishment which will come to them in knowing that they might, if they had kept the commandments of the Lord, have returned to his presence as his sons and his daughters. This will be a torment to them, and in that sense it will be hell." (Answers to Gospel Questions, v. 2, p. 210)
This line of thinking is interesting in light of Joseph Smith's following teaching:
"A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone" (TPJS, p. 357)
The entry in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism on "Damnation" essentially explains that the bottom two kingdoms of heaven are kingdoms of damnation:
"Just as there are varying degrees and types of salvation, coupled with eternal progression in some areas (D&C 76:96-98; 131:1-4), so are there varying degrees and types of damnation. In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be stopped, blocked, or limited in one's progress. Individuals are damned whenever they are prevented from reaching their full potential as children of God. Damnation is falling short of what one might have enjoyed if one had received and been faithful to the whole law of the gospel. In this sense, all who do not achieve the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom are damned, even though they are saved in some degree of glory."
HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):
HELL: A place of torment from which the worst of sinners are resurrected (if they repent) into the Telestial kingdom; only a limited number remain in hell forever, - the devil and the demons and apostates who consciously reject and work against Mormonism.
Nah...
Back before the M ORMONs got their CAUCUS privileges yanked; they would post a thinly disguised topic that bashed us ALL from the getgo!
Oh??
Do you 'believe' that the JST is a fabrication or God's word?
It’s been a while...
http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/by:restornu/index?tab=comments;brevity=full;options=no-change
So does MORMONism!!!!
And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
An 1830 statement titled "Testimony of Three Witnesses"—one statement signed by three men rather than three separate statements—was published at the end of the first edition of the Book of Mormon:
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, his brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seeen [sic] the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shewn unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvellous [sic] in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Take your time. We'll wait.
Please don't just up and vanish on us again.
No need to; as our learned scholars have already done the hard thinking.
We just follow what they have already told us.
I await your dissection of it's errors.
It is my sincere desire that all men follow Christ through his teachings. Amen.
When you get to read #72; please get back to us...
The text of the Edict of Thessalonica is available online; there’s no mention of any “execution purge” in it. I think the “purge” is LDS made-up history, much like Glenn Beck’s whopper that the Dead Sea scrolls were hidden to protect them from Constantine and the Catholics.
I don't believe I've heard where YOU attend.
Fair enough though all you had do to was click on my profile page. :-).
I'm a Christian who attends with United Church of God. Here's a couple of links for you or other interested parties:
My home congregation website: UCG Grand Rapids
This is the web site for our church: United Church of God
Here are some fundamental beliefs that the Church of God holds: Fundamental Beliefs
How about you Elsie....are you a brother in Christ? Do you have fellowship or worship Christ with any brethren?
No where do I ridicule the true Holy Spirit and the work of the Savior.
I do point out that the evil one can come to one in the guise of the Holy Spirit. But it is the responsibility to compare what a spirit says with what God's word tells us. To do otherwise is irresponsible and can lead a soul almost anywhere, especially to false cults like the LDS
As far your request on blasphemy, first there was none, second for a Mormon, who supports a doctrine that is an insult to Christ and his mission, to request such of a Christian is laughable at best, sad at worst and is so ironic as to be ridiculous.
Jesus also said he was God teppe - yours isn't a biblical viewpoint - it is a mormon viewpoint which is contrary to that of Christianity and the bible.
John 1:1 . . . The Word (Jesus) was with God AND THE WORD WAS GOD.
Nice aromatic flavor to it.
Another epic lie about the writings of Tertullian by teppe.
This UCG I take it?
http://www.ucg.org/booklet/god-trinity/
I can see where defending Mormonism may be of some interest...
Sorry, but that is false
This is what Tertullian actually says
We, however, as we indeed always have done (and more especially since we have been better instructed by the Paraclete, who leads men indeed into all truth), believe that there is one only God, but under the following dispensation, or οἰκονομία, as it is called, that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made.Nowhere does Tertullian argue that The Father is greater than Christ -- it doesn't make sense as the Father and the Son are one substance...the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
There are some who allege that even Genesis opens thus in Hebrew: In the beginning God made for Himself a Son. As there is no ground for this, I am led to other arguments derived from God's own dispensation, in which He existed before the creation of the world
Though the Son or Word of God Emanates from the Father, He is Not, Like the Emanations of Valentinus, Separable from the Father. Nor is the Holy Ghost Separable from Either
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it's easier this way)