Of 'Mormon Studies' and Apologetics [Mormon apologist recounts his firing by BYU]

FairLDS.org ^ | Aug. 5, 2012 | Daniel C. Peterson

[Colofornian]

...The very recent decision by the current leadership of the Maxwell Institute to forego explicit defense and advocacy of Mormonism—to renounce explicit apologetics—may have been influenced by concerns about the arrogant mean-spiritedness of one or two of those most prominently associated with its apologetic side...

SNIP

...notice how the 2012 Mission Statement of the Maxwell Institute reads, and contrast it with the one I quoted...from 2010:..

...Gone is the language about “defend[ing] the Restoration”...

...during the last conversation that I had with the director of the Maxwell Institute before I left for six weeks overseas—I was dismissed by email roughly a week into my trip, while in Jerusalem—I was informed of the new course to which the Maxwell Institute is now committed...

A few observers, commenting on the recent shake-up at the Maxwell Institute, have claimed that it represents a generational change: A newer, perhaps better trained, certainly kinder and gentler cohort of scholars is arriving on the scene that is embarrassed if not disgusted by the things their predecessors have done, and that is eager to replace sordid polemics and distasteful pseudoscholarship with solid, dispassionate Mormon studies. Time will tell whether this change of generations will really deliver the predicted transformation.

[svcw]

Yep

[MeOnTheBeach]

"Grace is Grace, works is works they are not equal."

Apples and oranges. Grace and works are not comparative. Grace and works are co-dependent, they go hand in hand.

"Biblical Salvation is not worked based, hence the term Grace."

Technically it is. You can't have salvation without works. That's straight out of the mouth of the prophets and Jesus Himself.

I find that most people who take the "believe only" stance conveniently describe "works" in an out of context fashion. I see, "You can't work your way to heaven", posted all the time. That's not what's being said. What's being said is, Jesus requires certain works in order to give grace.

That's straight from the mouth the Lord Himself. You can choose to believe anything you want in this life. God gave us freedom of choice. But at the judgement you're judged by your works and not by any other standard.

"There is assurance in Grace, there is no assurance in works."

There is perfect assurance in the works of God. There is perfect assurance that Jesus will judge us correctly. There is perfect assurance that if we do what God has commanded us to do, He will bless us as He said He would.

As far as I can tell, there's no arbitration at the judgement. You can't talk your way out of it. Either you followed the rules to get into Heaven or you didn't. You did what you were supposed to do or you didn't. Your works will show exactly which master you followed.

[MeOnTheBeach]

"No, actually Catholics don’t."

"No Christian faith does."

This is not historically correct in any way. You should do some research before making definitive statements like this.

The historical requirement of baptism for most of Christendom completely disqualifies your statement.

[svcw]

You can't have salvation without works.

That is patently false. If you have to work for Salvation, you can never be assured. There is no way to work hard enough or long enough to earn the Gift of Grace.

Grace is a gift. Gifts are not earned.

[ejonesie22]

My research is far more advanced than yours. I serve with Catholics on numerous Ecumenical boards and ministries, along with Baptist, Lutherans, Methodist such as myself, and all share share the message of the free gift of Christ’s redeeming Grace and that to be Baptized you must accept Christ as your savior. Since there are learned practitioners and clergy from all such groups on these boards and in these ministries of fellow Christians I'll take that research over the “Historical” research of a LDS member...

[ejonesie22]

You are the perfect LDS member. Believing that will let anyone telling you what you must do to get into heaven be your master including a “prophet” such as Joe Smith.

The reality is far more freeing and blessed than that...

[svcw]

Well, Beach, your answers make sense now that I realize you are practitioner of mormonism.
I was slow to catch that information.

[ejonesie22]

One of the hidden ones, a “stunt Mormon” as it were but too obvious now.

Expect denial.

[MeOnTheBeach]

"That is patently false.

This is patently what the Lord Jesus Christ said Himself. If you don't want to accept it, that's your choice. Good luck with that at the judgement.

If you have to work for Salvation, you can never be assured.

I have faith in Jesus Christ, that's all the assurance that I need. Your statement reminds me of something straight out of the Screwtape letters; don't try because you can't succeed.

"There is no way to work hard enough or long enough to earn the Gift of Grace."

Do you honestly think the rules get changed because you think it's too hard??

"Grace is a gift. Gifts are not earned."

If doing evil works will condemn you, good works have to save you; through the judgement and grace of Jesus Christ. He will judge us based on our works and give grace accordingly.

1 John 2:29
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Colossians 3:25
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

John 3:21
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

1 John 3:7
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

John 9:31
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Matthew 7:21
21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 9:4
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

James 2:22
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

These are just a small handful of scriptures out of literally 100's that show the importance of works in regards to salvation. It's the 2nd most important and prominent teaching in the whole New Testament.

And here's a biggie:
Revelation 20:13
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

To say works have no part in salvation is bizarre when works is the very criteria Christ uses to grant salvation.

[MeOnTheBeach]

"You are the perfect LDS member."

Really? I've been called a lot of things but never that. Funny. I was accused of being an atheist at one point.

Thanks to you, maybe I'll look into it. But call me what you want, I don't get offended by people on the internet. *chuckle! (Well unless you call me a liberal or tell me you're going to take my guns away...I have to work on that one)

"The reality is far more freeing and blessed than that..."

Atheist say the same thing...

[MeOnTheBeach]

"My research is far more advanced than yours."

This is called, "Appeal to Authority".

I serve with Catholics

Awesome! Now answer me this, do Catholics believe baptism is necessary for salvation?

[ejonesie22]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Eph 2:8-9

Checkmates you Mormons every time.

You know the words but have no understanding. Therefore you get it all backwards. Works are BECAUSE of salvation through GRACE, not for EARNING salvation.

Don't worry, not your fault, works based salvation is drilled into your heads as it is in several cults. Without it they could not maintain the control of otherwise free people.

The history and story of God's own plan of salvation its very self shows the error of such thinking. If works gained salvation then Christ was totally unnecessary.

[ejonesie22]

Well when one plays games and is less than stright forward expect anythoing. For now, you are LDS until you will admit to being otherwise. Some of us take faith seriously and find games just a cover for such groups who find “lying for the lord” acceptable.

And atheist never say anything is “blessed”. Nice try.

[ejonesie22]

Saying one follows Christ and or the Bible is an appeal to Authority. No different that what you are attempting, but with much less success. While it's cute to play the logical fallacy game, make sure that all the bases are covered. If the authority is correct then there is no fallacy.

I know the slope you are heading down, pardon me if I will stay safe up here in the truth and not get caught in your avalanche. But here is a hint, Baptism is not a work...

Next...

[MeOnTheBeach]

"And atheist never say anything is “blessed”. Nice try."

The Blessings of Atheism From the NY Times.

You're as accurate with this as just about everything else.

"For now, you are LDS until you will admit to being otherwise.

I don't get trolled and I won't be bullied. Good day.

[ejonesie22]

Hardly religious in meaning.

No one is trolling you or bulling you. You come into the threads calming some level of authority (ironic that is) and telling knowledgeable Christians they are wrong. Yet you will not be forth coming about your own faith and background.

So until otherwise declared we go on the “walks like a duck”

So save the victim stuff...

[BlueDragon]

To say works have no part in salvation is bizarre when works is the very criteria Christ uses to grant salvation.

Is it by the works of Christ we are judged, or of our own? If our own, then one sin forever separates us. If that not be true...then the Muslim idea of scales, one's good deeds on one side, weighed against one's sins on the other is proper? If so, then why should God Himself need have come to bear the sins of the world at all?

I'm sorry, but the theology you propose is anything but Christian. It is not much more than a demand to out-Pharisee the Pharisees (zealots after the law).

Is THAT what the theology you propose understands what Christ meant when He said "... except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven"?

It is best to consider the setting under which he said the above (following the presentation of what is now known as the Beatitudes).

Closing that chapter is

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Which raises the question, 'how to be perfect?'. I suggest it is not in regards to law itself, but towards the origins and intent of the law. For one can think of themselves as outwardly keeping every aspect of the law, yet inwardly be as the Pharisees which He condemned.

If we have learned anything regarding the documented relationship of the children of Israel to God and His given laws, is that no flesh can keep them. Anything less than perfection, is not enough.

Good works gets no one into heaven, for none are good enough. Except One.

[Alex Murphy]

Put them together as the Bible does and you get, grace is freely given to those that do all they can do and please God. Jesus saves all men who keep His commandments and does the will of His Father. All men are judged by their own works. It's very simple math. 1) Have faith in Jesus Christ. 2) Keep the commandments of God. 3) You are judged by your works. 4) If your works are good, grace is freely given.

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