How to Stay in the LDS Church After a Major Trial of Faith [Internal Mormon critic]

From the slide show: "The church is either exactly what it claims to be, or the biggest fraud ever perpetrated upon mankind."

The quoted comments from the slideshow excerpt that begin to talk about a high stake council member's naivety of his faith -- and concludes with this quote above -- were not slideshow presenter John Dehlin's comments; he yet was quoting someone else as found on slides 19 through 23.

What is interesting is that Dehlin titled this presentation as an actual encouragement for Mormons to consider staying in the Lds church...(though he added a disclaimer that it wasn't "for everyone.")

Last week, Dehlin updated this slideshow with roughly the same advice: See 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church (Mormon Stories Podcast almost an hour long)

Dehlin, an internal Mormon critic of the church...is trying to change it from the inside-out.

What I find "interesting" about this "reformation" effort is that Dehlin advises Lds members to strongly consider staying, yet his 2007 slideshow quote of a conflicted Lds high stake council member concluding that there was no "middle ground" seems to run in stark contrast to that advice: "The church is either exactly what it claims to be, or the biggest fraud ever perpetrated upon mankind."

Per Wheat and Tares.org (http://www.wheatandtares.org/2012/07/30/sunstone-2012-recap/), Dehlin spoke at the 2012 Sunstone Conference and claims he's a "believer in something" and that he "doesn’t believe the Book of Mormon is a literal history, but believes it is inspired, and he doesn’t believe the Church is the 'only true church,' but rather one of many."

Throughout Dehlin's presentations, he tries -- vainly -- to seek out some Mormon "middle ground" that would allow him and other Mormons to engage in what I reference as "saving social face"...all apparently so they can find a way to stay put and keep their cultural identity, their family commitments and relationships, etc...even as the "heart" of their Mormon faith erodes away!

What's ironic in all this is that Lds "prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley challenged Mormons to not even try this route: "Each of us has to face the matter -- either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and Kingdom of God or it is nothing." (Lds church "prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley, "Loyalty," Ensign (Conference Edition), May 2003, p. 60

What's also ironic is that Dehlin pushes disaffected and disassociated Mormons to keep pursuing truth claims that run directly counter to the propagandistic "party line" oft' given by the Lds church -- even to the point of last week's "Top 5 Myths and Truths..." (see link above) emphasizing that these disaffected and disassociated Mormons are only doing what the Lds hymn Do What is Right [Let the Consequences Follow} encourages them to do!

Well, which is it? Are Lds going to truly "Do What is Right" and "Let the Consequences Follow"??? Or will they try to continue surfing a non-existent wave of a non-existent "middle ground"???

Timing of this post links back to this current (today) effort to "reform" Mormonism...somehow indicating that it could somehow be "reformed" from the inside-out.

See: Mormon Reformation [Posting of 95 Theses on Mormon Church Doors]

place mark

Oh my .... Another chance to revel in smearing a Christ believing people whom you doctrinally do not agree with!

Come now ... let’s the anti-mormon bigotry begin once more!

svcw ... you need to invite all the gang!

Sad very sad.
I have known Christians who have had a crisis of faith, and their testimonies always talk about God and Jesus Christ not their “church”. I found that interesting in comparison to this man.

Reminder: This is the Religion Forum. Personal attacks are not allowed.

Sorry I have every right to attack someone when I see BS regardless of the type of topic..

Talk to your fellow LDS member that wrote this about their bigotry and hate against the “church” and get back to us...

Yeah I know you won’t you are always one and done, but it shows your duplicity and trickery...

For the backdrop of John Dehlin -- as told by him on this slideshow -- see especially slides 7 thru 10 where he mentions he is a "5th generation LDS" ... missionary background...married in Lds temple...called as an "early morning seminary teacher"

Upon learning what he began to uncover about Mormonism (see above...or slide 8)... he said he felt "deceived...angry like it was all a fraud...like he had a moral obligation to resign" (slide 9) and soon discovered many others like him.

Kevin -- others -- ALL -- please take the time to carefully cull through these many links...and THEN you can take issue with whatever you want...(Opinions are encouraged on FR!!!) We just simply appreciate informed opinions more than uninformed ones!!!

Key Links to Most of 95 Theses: Info, Web Sites Articles on Top Issues Leading to Major Mormon Exodus

Thesis #	Links	MRM.tv; John Ankerberg links; Mormonisminvestigated (UK) youtube linkage, etc.
1. Smith's peepstone usage in Book of Mormon 'translation'	Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #15 from this article) + Translation of the Book of Mormon + Book of Mormon translation + A Seer Stone and a Hat - "Translating" the Book of Mormon	Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #3)
2. The Missing Mormon archaeology of Book of Mormon civilizations	The Scientific Search for Nephite Remains (Mormon Archaeology )
3. Book of Mormon history -- anachonisms	Anachronisms	Where did the Book of Mormon come from? + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #4 & #5))#
4. DNA as relating to undergirding Book of Mormon history	Lamanite DNA (scroll down) + DNA Science Challenges LDS History	DNA vs. the Book of Mormon
5. Note how Book of Mormon names matches up, with slight revisions, with local names where Joseph Smith resided	In Search of Book of Mormon Geography + Book of Mormon Geography: Which Theory do you Believe?
6. Early Mormon theology and latter-day fallout from disbelieving Mormon theology/doctrine	Resources on Lds theology + "This Is My Doctrine": The Development of Mormon Theology + The Evolution of Mormon Theology + Joseph Smith’s Modalism: Sabellian Sequentialism or Swedenborgian Expansionism?
7 to 11. Losing faith in Book of Mormon as historical account	The Book of Mormon + Book of Mormon Difficulties	John Ankerberg Show "Book of Mormon is not qualified" + Top 10 Mormon Problems
10. First Nephi has LOTS of issues	The Book of Mormon and the King James Version (KJV Translation errors show up in the Book of Mormon)
12 to 14. Book of Abraham really an Egyptian funeral document?	The Book of Abraham + The Book of Abraham + Book of Abraham + Death Blow to Mormonism – The Book of Abraham is a Fake? + The Book of Abraham + Min is Not God!	The Lost Book of Abraham + Top 10 Mormon Problems
15. Fake Kinderhook Plates which fooled Joseph Smith	The Kinderhook Plates	Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #7)
17. Joseph Smith marries 14-year-old...and dozens of wives		Joseph Smith's 14 year old bride Helen Mar Kimball 100
18. Polyandry: Joseph Smith married the wives of 11 fellow Mormons	Joseph Smith Married Other Men's Wives: Would you share your spouse with the Prophet?
18 thru 25. Polygamy--including post-manifesto polygamy/Polyandry -- "polyandry" including Joseph Smith being married to 11 women already married -- who remained married	Polygamy [Everything you might want to possibly know about historical Mormon polygamy] + LDS Leaders Still Believe There Will be Polygamy in Heaven	The 34 wives of Joseph Smith (and their 11 husbands) + Lifting the Veil of Polygamy + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #8)
20. Joseph Smith secret 'marriage' to teen Fanny Alger minus authority to do so	Alger History and Ancestry: Fanny W. Alger 1817-1879 + Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (See #17, 18 from this article)
21. LDS Leaders' Lies to Cover-Up Historical Polygamy	Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #56 thru #59, #64, #71, #72, #76 thru #113, #132 from this article) + LDS Leaders, Their Ethics and Lying for the Lord
22. Joseph Smith lied to his original wife	See # 22, 24, 29, 30, 39, 40 etc. from this list: Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read]
23. Polygamy: How it went from 'everlasting' to 'embarrassing'	Great Moments in Mormon History
24. Post-manifesto Mormon polygamy	Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #56 through #59, #76 thru #113, and #125 from this article) + see Solemn Covenant: THE MORMON POLYGAMOUS PASSAGE -- see appendix list of about 260 plural marriages solemnized between 1890-1910
25. Lds 'scriptures' inconsistent with each other	The Book of Mormon vs Mormonism
28. Joseph Smith, post 'first vision,' tries to join Methodist church	Joseph Smith Tries to Join the Methodists
29. Multiple/conflicting versions of Joseph Smith's 'First Visions'	Joseph Smith's First Vision: Examining the evidence related to Joseph Smith’s claim to have seen the Father and the Son + The First Vision + First Vision plagiarized	Heart of the Matter: First Vision II
30. Why lengthy lag time of announcing 'First Vision'? (Authenticity or credibility of 'priesthood restoration'/Is Lds church 'One True Church?')	Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #1 from this article) + Priesthood Restoration + The Great Apostasy + Did Brigham Young teach that Christians are ignorant people?	Those Abominable Creeds +
31. Smith's history of treasure-digging	Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #11 from this article) + Joseph Smith and Money-Digging + See post #15
32. Joseph Smith repeatedly claimed angel 'Nephi' -- Not 'Moroni' was 'Angel' that visited him	Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #5 from this article)
33. Gold plates difficult for Joseph Smith to move	How Heavy Were Those Gold Plates?
34. Loss of credibility of so-called 'Book of Mormon witnesses'	Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #14 from this article) + The Witnesses + Book of Mormon witnesses	Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #9)
36. No early mention of Melchizedek priesthood in Mormon church	Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #10 from this article)
38. Joseph Smith wouldn't have been able to pass a 'Word of Wisdom' interview	Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #6 from this article)
43. Masonic influences in temple ceremony	Masonic Influence in the Endowment Ceremony + Masonry/Temple	Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #10) + Sandra Tanner on Mormon Temples
45 & 46. Lds temple ceremony changes: Why change something 'direct from Mormon god?'	Temple Ritual Changed...Again + Only The Latest In A Long Line: Temple Ceremony Changes Through History + Why the temple ceremony was changed in 1990 - LDS-Mormon + Why the need for secret death oaths in the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony? [Secretive Mormon church]	Sandra Tanner on Mormon Temples + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #10)
48. Lds church making Jews into 'Mormons' post-death as their 'saviors?'	Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? (The OTHER World Series: Vanity)
50. Joseph Smith shenanigans re: Nauvoo Expositor	Nauvoo City Council’s minutes of 1840s provide chaos, contention and lies [Lds' Smith Shenanigans] + Unparralled Outrage at Nauvoo + The Martyrdom: The Prophet Seals His Testimony with His Blood [168th anniversary of Lds censorship]
51. Joseph Smith died in a gun battle	PALMER'S ALMANAC: Mormon prophet Joseph Smith met with violent end + The Nauvoo Expositor Affair [Death of Mormon Joseph Smith]
53. Mormon cosmology?	Mormon Science and Space Doctrines [Kolobian cosmology]
56. Lds prophet prophecies that failed to pass (Losing faith in Joseph Smith)	The Prophecies of Joseph Smith + this earlier 2003 FR posted piece: Failed prophecies of Joseph Smith + Joseph Smith	Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith +The Prophecies of Joseph Smith + First steps into a New Life
57. Brigham Young's "Adam" = Mormon god teaching over 20 years	Adam God doctrine	BYU Professor Admits Adam-God Taught By Brigham Young
58 to 61. Losing confidence in Lds general authorities	Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] + An American Fraud: One Lawyer's Case Against Mormonism + Resources on Lds theology + How Well Do You Know Mormon Church Leaders of the Past? + Can Mormons Trust Their Prophets?
62. Lack of Mormon leader discernment when meeting with con artist/ murderer-to-be Mark Hofmann scandal	Film in the works about Hinckley and the Mark Hofmann Episode	Mormon Stories Podcast: The Mormon Forgery Bombings – The Complex Legacy of Mark Hofmann 25 Years Later
65. Do official Mormon sources exist? What about the Journal of Discourses?	Do “Official” Mormon Sources Exist?
66. Church history cover-up by Lds leaders	Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #7, #129)
67. Studying Mormon church history leading to disbelief -- therefore church leaders pre-empt scope of much Lds historical scholarship	Historical issues + Interesting Looks at Mormon History	The Early Years of Mormonism
69. Lds church placing illegal aliens in leadership positions	2 LDS branch presidents in Utah deported to Guatemala, El Salvador
72. Mormon 'testimonial' manipulation	Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary
73. Mormon 'prophet' Hinckley covered up Mormon teaching of becoming gods	Mormon Profits and Lying
74. Blood atonement: How Jesus' blood is anemic per Mormonism	Blood Atonement	What is Mormon Doctrin of "blood atonement"?
76. Mountain Meadows Massacre: First 9/11 terrorist act in USA	Mountain Meadows Massacre:“MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE HORROR CONTINUES 150 YEARS LATER” + Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #133-134)	Mountain Meadow Massacre
78 to 81. Mormon Racism: Exclusion of blacks from Priesthood into 1978	Blacks and the priesthood + Racism + Racial Statements in LDS Scriptures + See Bott file & links	>Racism and Mormonism + Top 10 Mormon Problems
83. Lds stances re: women	Great Moments in Mormon History + Making Mormon 'Spirit' Babies [Ecumenic]
87. Lack of Lds church financial transparency -- even to its own members/leaders	Mormon church earns $7 billion a year from tithing, analysis indicates
89. Supposedly 'lay clergy' Mission Presidents receive 'sweet' 'benefits' deal	Unpaid Mormon leaders get pretty sweet deal
94. Relying upon emotional sentiments? (A 'testimony')	Quick Responses to the 10 Most Common LDS Questions (See #7)

Here’s some advice for every mormon:

LEAVE! If you claim to love Christ, “come out from among them and be holy.”

If you stay, you are accepting the words of men that contradict the Holy Scriptures of God.

1. God is ONE God. There are not 4 mormon earth gods plus billions of other gods. God says there is one and that there will never be another. Please use your mind. How can two gods be omnipotent? They cannot.
2. Satan’s message that you can become like god is the mormon message. No one “becomes” god. You are not going to be a god any more than Satan will become god.
3. Jesus Christ is eternal. Never created. Mormon teaching reduces Him to part of creation.
4. The Gospel of Grace alone saves. The result of His new Life is the fruit of good works. Mormon teaching forces mormons to try to earn “worthiness”. You will never be worthy enough to deserve the sacrifice of the Blood and Life of Christ. It is a gift.
5. Joseph Smith was a horndog scammer. He was not a prophet. Please read history.
6. The foundation of truth is the Holy Bible - not your feelings. When everything is said and done, the foundation of mormonism is the elevation of feelings over objective truth.
7. Mormonism is not Christianity. Not close. There is nothing shared between Christianity and mormonism, except the name “Jesus Christ”... and when each uses the name, they mean a different person.
8. There is no “restored Gospel”. It was never lost. It remains in the Bible today, as it has since the beginning. You cannot restore what is not lost. It can save you today, and yet you wait?
9. There is no “restored Church”. The Church has never ceased to exist.
10. Today is the appointed day of salvation. You have today. Tomorrow may never come. “It is appointed once for man to die, and after this comes judgement.”

What are you waiting for? You are sincere, but on the wrong path. Only you are keeping your feet on the wrong path. You can change paths today. Now. Do it while there is still time.

94 links. Very good stuff to anyone who is actually open!

Again I don’t FRAKIN CARE!!!!! I’m more concerned about Radical Islam...

Colofornian,

If you spent 1/10th of the time understanding the dubious personalities and methods which culminated in your belief system that you do in ours ....

You would be shocked to find out that the distortions which you put on the LDS Church pale in comparison to the those that you support in your own church on a regular basis.

You definition of the “True God” of the Nicene Creed only triumphed after the Eddict of Thessalonica which demanded state adherence by threat of death.

I really do not think that an emperor’s threat of death to establish God’s definition is what our Heavenly Father or Christ had in mind.

If however, Satan himself had wanted that particular doctrine to triumph that is precisely the means he would have used. Hmmm, now who’s influence was that Emperor Theodosius really under?

....Just a little food for thought.

Then you should have a field day with Mormons. Jesus in America, Joe Smith a prophet, multiple gods, etc. etc. etc., a virtual cornucopia of BS for you to go after...

I do not have a gang, maybe in high school but not now.
You are aware this article was written by a mormon - right?
Do you beleive him to anti-mormon?
When you say Christ believing, you are talking about Christians and not those who practice mormonISM - right?
Even the leaders of mormonISM say that mormonISM does not teach the Biblical Christ. You know that - right?

94 links. Very good stuff to anyone who is actually open!

And there are folks on FR who actually ARE open to the truth about mormonism..regardless of the attacks by the mormon apologists on these threads.

Please, post a thread about islam, then ping us.
This is a thread about mormonISM, so the discussion is about mormonISM. You are aware of that - right?