Strobel takes the cynical approach through a series of interviews. His interview with a forensic pathologist really puts the crucifixion in perspective.
I accepted Jesus as a matter of fact when I was a child. As I grew up to many things made me rethink his existence. To many facts are missing,, undocumented, and lacking and form of proof.
NOT one document was EVER survived or even mentioned where as enough writings of everyone else of any importance has survived. Jesus was not even mentioned by anyone with the exception of Paul and the Disciples, and THAT only occurred over two Decades after his was supposedly crucified.
Even Herod’s records of crucifixions make no mention of Christ or anyone but criminals, political enemies, captured soldiers but no religious profits.
Nor is there any mention anywhere that Jesus EVER wrote - period. It is also noted that NONE of his disciples were ever capable of writing. No scribes were ever mentioned which many illiterate (most were so).
Only Paul wrote but 1. he was not a disciple, 2. He was a Roman Citizen and well educated in Greek and other languages. His writings are prolific.
I have become closer to the fact that there is definitely a God. I see it not only in everything around me but also in the actual evolution of mankind and every creature on this planet.
Jesus may have existed. I can’t say - but his teachings (or whoever originated the concepts attributed to him), definitely were extremely important to mankind.
Early secular sources mentioning Jesus - http://life.liegeman.org/historymaker/extern.html
Peter asked to be crucified upside down as he was unequal to die the same as Christ. I think the Romans who were killing him knew of whom he spoke.
I used to be a former atheist and I think it's a very healthy thing to question one's faith. I hope you find what you're looking for, I would also pick up a copy of The Language of God it had a huge role in my conversion.
Paul met Jesus in person. Read Acts 9.
“Nor is there any mention anywhere that Jesus EVER wrote - period. It is also noted that NONE of his disciples were ever capable of writing. No scribes were ever mentioned which many illiterate (most were so).”
I’m not sure what the first point about Jesus is supposed to achieve; Christians do not believe that Jesus wrote the Bible. ‘It is noted that NONE ...’? Noted where? By who? You can’t just claim a thing and say that it’s ‘noted’. Remember that only a few were fishermen. One was a tax collector. One was a doctor. And even the ones that weren’t literate weren’t wholly incapable of dictating their accounts to someone who WAS literate. So again, these are hardly unanswerable questions.
Take a look. The Case for Christ Speaking as someone trained in science and with an inherently skeptical nature, I found this fascinating and persuasive.
Matthew was a Tax Collector, so it is logical to assume he was literate.
Mark? I have no reason to believe he had no education.
Where would those kinds or revolutionary teachings have come from then? What human could have come up with the teachings of Jesus?
Would not the uniqueness of them and their importance to mankind, be enough to verify that they were not of human origin?
And if they were of human origin, how could the information have been lost of who that person was who came up with them, when the other writings of many other great philosophers managed to survive?
In the Religion forum, on a thread titled My Train Wreck Conversion..., I despised Christians. Then I somehow became one. , jongaltsr wrote:
I accepted Jesus as a matter of fact when I was a child. As I grew up to many things made me rethink his existence. To many facts are missing,, undocumented, and lacking and form of proof.
If you're referring to Jesus' mention in every December issue of Newsweek "Who was the real Jesus?" and suchlike, you must first understand the nature of historical biography in the era of 2,000 years ago.
They didn't have typewriters, and weren't on contract to fill out a 300-page book, as biographies are written today. Read any of the biographies that existed at that time: None of the historical figures that were written about included much more than a brief mention of their childhoods. It was not considered relevant to who they were.
NOT one document was EVER survived or even mentioned where as enough writings of everyone else of any importance has survived. Jesus was not even mentioned by anyone with the exception of Paul and the Disciples, and THAT only occurred over two Decades after his was supposedly crucified.
Josephus? Ever heard of Josephus, the Jewish historian who wrote history for the Romans?
As to the historical veracity of the accounts, they seem correct. They have their political milieu correct, the right people doing the right historical things at the right time. The culture and tradition of Jewish life was captured in exacting detail--a non-Jew wouldn't have finessed it so correctly. So...the accounts DO seem to have been written down or at least dictated by Jews who themselves were there, in that location, at that time.
As to Paul...he was considered BY THE DISCIPLES THEMSELVES to be a disciple. He convinced them, and that will be good enough for me.
As an aside, are you aware that (IIRC the order) Socrates taught Plato who taught Aristotle...and that Socrates didn't leave anything written behind?
Oops.
I mean, if you're going to apply your own standard of historical validation, are you not now compelled to disbelieve in the existence of Socrates? (Mr. Hemlock Drinkin', "I'm lookin' for an honest man as I carry this lantern in broad daylight" kinda guy.)
It was Plato and Aristotle that wrote about this mythical Socrates that, according to you, we know could not have existed.
Oh, by the way, his students Plato and Aristotle only left behind FOUR (4) manuscripts attesting to his existence. Only four.
And yet, historians don't question whether he ever existed.
This is hypocrisy when we have 5,200+ manuscripts detailing Christ. Oh, and they were written about as long after the fact as Socrates' vicarious writings were, too. (Just something to consider.) Shows you how biased the discipline of history has become, eh?
Even Herod’s records of crucifixions make no mention of Christ or anyone but criminals, political enemies, captured soldiers but no religious profits.
Prophets [sic].
The Jewish scholars certainly believed he existed. They still do, today--they just don't accept him. But they don't discount that he existed.
The Roman historian Josephus, as I'd mentioned, seemed to have heard of him. 'nuff said.
Nor is there any mention anywhere that Jesus EVER wrote - period. It is also noted that NONE of his disciples were ever capable of writing. No scribes were ever mentioned which many illiterate (most were so).
Matthew was a tax collector. Why would a tax collector be illiterate, in your view? Wouldn't that make the process a bit more difficult and prone to dispute?! Wouldn't a TAX COLLECTOR have to write down the person's name, and amount, and date paid? Oh, and province, and where born, where living?
Only Paul wrote but 1. he was not a disciple, 2. He was a Roman Citizen and well educated in Greek and other languages. His writings are prolific.
Incorrect. Paul was a disciple. Paul was HIGHLY educated--in Phillippians, he used polysyndeton and chiasm. I took three years of Spanish and cannot very easily do any of that in Spanish, and yet Paul did it in a language that was not his native Hebrew--he did it in Koine Greek! (Why don't YOU try that?) ;)
I have become closer to the fact that there is definitely a God. I see it not only in everything around me but also in the actual evolution of mankind and every creature on this planet.
We're in agreement. The evidence is quite overwhelming.
Look, I think you're an okay guy, it's just that you need to enroll in a serious Bible study at the college level, and take some Koine Greek. Like I did, back when I was sounding a lot like you. ;)
Jesus may have existed. I can’t say - but his teachings (or whoever originated the concepts attributed to him), definitely were extremely important to mankind.
Please think of it this way: There's no question he existed. The Hebrew scholars to this day aren't arguing against THAT, and they carry forth the arguments made by their forefathers.
Add to that the writings of Josephus, who noted the events in that province at that time.
Add to that the fact that the apostles scattered, reaching the entire Mediterranean world at great personal sacrifice to themselves, and over many years--the remainder of their lifetimes! How many people do THAT, if they haven't experienced some event they feel compelled to share? I'll answer that:
Look at other religions...I'll take Islam (although, pardon me, I COULD also have chosen Mormonism on this account): The apostles of Islam did the two common things men do when they're part of a false religion: (1) they use their apostleship to travel and gain access to women for sex, and (2) they use their apostleship to gain access to wealth.
N.B.: Christ's apostles...did neither.
...and that's how you can tell. Look at their actions, for that's how you will know them. Christ's apostles gained nothing but death at the hands of the militant Klingon, uh, Roman Empire. (I said that to draw a more accurate mental picture in your mind of the militocracy that Rome was.)
That they were going to be executed was not a surprise to them. They knew they would be. Bone up on your history, and you'll see that some of them were pretty well "warned off" by the authorities several times before they were cashiered. They chose to ignore the warnings.
Now, WHY would they do that? Pursue something arduous, risky, gets no "p*ssy" (to put it crudely in the colloquial), gains no wealth, takes you far from home and family, puts you amidst strange heathen peoples with their strange barbarian tongues--especially when you're a good, well-educated Jewish young man who's always been taught to more or less distance yourself from the heathen?
Must've been SOME compelling reason. Dontcha think?
As a final thought, C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel have pointed out that Jesus left no room in our minds that he could be anything other than the Son of God, a delusional madman, or a liar. (IIRC, someone help me with that line of argument, it's really facinating when you consider it.)
Always HTH on this issue!
Sauron
Christianity is constituted so that warrant for its faith is based on the premise that God manifests that He is the living God, including that those who believe on Him out of a honest and contrite heart realize effects in heart and life which correspond to His promises, and though this includes trials, it also includes positive things which defy reasonable naturalistic explanations, though my experience with atheists is they simply cannot allow any possibility even for any supernatural explanations.
While there certainly can be natural reasons for claims (yet God uses nature) as well as fabrications, there are also those which testify more clearly to a supernatural cause. Watch many here: http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/Amazing/ (which does not sanction everything that Robertson says).
Add to such the thousands of classical hymns about a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus, which i think is unique in scope and depth.
As regards “that NONE of his disciples were ever capable of writing,” this may indicate you simply read atheistic type material. In contrast, see scholars here: http://bible.org/seriespage/did-some-disciples-take-notes-during-jesus%E2%80%99-ministry
“NOT one document was EVER survived”
This is a good point. However, not one document from this period has survived. You know Plato, Aristotle, Herodotus, etc, everything that we know of this period of time, is contained in copies that date to the latter part of the medieval ages, some thousand or so years after they were first written.
With the exception of one - scripture. The earliest complete copy we have is the Codex Vaticanus which dates to 320 AD. We have copies of various books in the Old Testament that date back to before the time of Christ.
With respect to the new - we have fragments and copies that date to the early 2nd century and mid 2nd century, some 50-100 years after Christ. This is unprecedented.
“Jesus was not even mentioned by anyone with the exception of Paul and the Disciples, and THAT only occurred over two Decades after his was supposedly crucified.”
Who is the first independent person to mention Julius Caesar, and when did he write?
“It is also noted that NONE of his disciples were ever capable of writing. No scribes were ever mentioned which many illiterate (most were so).”
Absence of Evidence is not evidence of absence. What evidence do you have that they could not write?
“Jesus may have existed. I can’t say - but his teachings (or whoever originated the concepts attributed to him), definitely were extremely important to mankind.”
There are secondary sources that refer to Jesus - look up Josephus, look up Suetonius. The same historians that provide the evidence we have for Julius Caesar, are the same historians that mention Christ.
You need to study the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth. In truth every single one of your statements is false. Too bad you haven’t taken the time to find out the truth
He revealed Himself to me in miraculous ways. He let me know that Jesus is real, and led me through my salvation experience step by step. He taught me many things that first night He saved me, and also during the next few days. It was only as time progressed, and I studied The Bible for myself that I came to understand and realize that the many things He led me through and showed me are important truths written about in The Bible.
There isn't any way that I cannot know that it was The LORD who saved me, partly because I know that I did not know, nor could have known the truths that He showed and taught me about in those first few days. The Bible is packed with information that most people, even Christians, unless they have really studied it thoroughly, are not aware of. Even the things that did not make sense to me have since come to make perfect sense to me as I studied The Bible and found and learned about them.
If you will seek Him with all of your heart He is faithful and will reveal Himself to you, as well as lead you into the truth about The Bible, and your need for a saving relationship with Him, which can come only through His Son Jesus Christ. You can come to Him without understanding that the things in The Bible are true, if you are sincere about wanting to know truth and want to follow it with all of your heart. He will show you everything that you need to know. He will meet you as you are, and where you are at.
The thing that most people are not aware of is that they are thirsting for love. Even more than knowledge, which is good and necessary, it is real and lasting love your heart is longing for. Do you want to know love? If you do, you will find it in Jesus Christ, the one who died for you on the cross, and it will last forever.
You must have been told these things you are spouting and you have fallen for the deception. But, if you believe this due to your own research, you need learn better research skills.
There have been many fine responses to your post. But I wonder if you have heard there are newly discovered fragments of Mark that are being dated to the first century. This would place them within the lifetimes of some of the physical eyewitnesses of the ministry of Christ. See more info here:
http://www.hughhewitt.com/transcripts.aspx?id=2ae35594-18e1-4776-bd4a-ca8f77c4deb6
Also, something to think about. Let’s say there was a person called Jesus, and he taught many good things, but was killed by the religious/political establishment of his day. Now picture yourself as one of his disciples. Jesus has just been killed, and the authorities might being coming after you next. What do you do? Hide in fear? Probably.
But now let’s say something happened, something so amazing it changes you, changes you and every one of your fearful, sorrowful, hiding companions into men and women with the boldness to go about in public preaching Jesus as the savior of humanity. What would it be like, really, to see him alive again, after having seen him killed on the cross? Would it not have exactly that effect? Wouldn’t your fears melt away and give way to an irrepressible joy you could not contain? Would you not then know that death really was not the end, and you could face it with confidence?
It is one of the most difficult problems faced by those who would discredit the existence of Jesus, or failing that, the claims of his resurrection. There is simply no easy way to explain how the disciples survived that first lethal blow. There should have been nothing left but cowards running from the destruction of their failed leader, who seemed to promise messianic revolution, but was now dead and cold in the tomb.
Instead, there was bold and convinced proclamation of an impossible fact, first a dozen, then hundreds, then thousands and more, all within the space of a few short months, an explosive increase of people willing to believe, preach and die for a man who, they said, had risen from the dead.
If it was false, and the establishment wished to stop this new religion in it’s cradle, why not simply discredit the lie that there even was such a person? But that was never attempted or even questioned. Why not? Or if he was, as everyone knew, quite real, why not produce the body? The authorities had the motive and the resources to do so, and if Jesus’ body was available, they certainly would have done so. It was bad politics, for both Rome and Israel, to let this thing go unchecked. Yet they could do nothing to stop it.
The most natural explanation is that something remarkable happened to turn things around for those first beleaguered disciples, something that corroborated everything Jesus had taught them, something very like a resurrection.
Food for thought...
That might be but did you ever talked to Him about the problem?
Oh? In what way?
Faith in Him should be enough to believe in our Creator.
However, historical writings, artifacts, simple common sense...and THE Shroud should be enough as well.
Certainly an “Intelligent Designer” of the Universe is self evident based on the perfect balance where we exist in space. Additionally, the deep complexity of human DNA still remains a mystery and to believe this was formed by itself from nothing is simply idiotic.
re: the Shroud, carbon dating of the ORIGINAL section (not the repaired section initially tested) proves it was created during the time of Christ.
Scientists discovered the pollen was unique to the geographic area that Christ resided.
It’s also been shown the 3D image on the Shroud was likely caused by a “mini-nuclear” micro-second explosion similar to the Big Bang.
That in 2000 years, this 3D image on a cloth has NEVER been reproduced.
If a Christian believes and it turns out they were wrong, no downside.
If an atheist is wrong, the downside is HUGE!
Choose wisely....
1 John 1
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Introduction, The Incarnate Word
1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
Revelation 1:9
9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and [g]perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was [h]in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11 saying, “Write in a [i]book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
Whoever wrote this stuff claimed to be the same John who hung out with Jesus.
Strobel takes the cynical approach through a series of interviews. His interview with a forensic pathologist really puts the crucifixion in perspective.