“A Lutheran Ordinariate? That’s a Bad Sign”

La Stampa-Vatican Insider ^ | 1-22-13 | Alessandro Speciale

[Cletus.D.Yokel]

:: followers of Martin Luther ::

Yo! Papa Benny! You just “lost” all the real Lutherans with that rhetoric.

[Moonmad27]

This Former Catholic turned Lutheran will never “go back” no matter how many articles like this are on FR.

[Claud]

I am keeping an eye out on these folks:

http://www.nordiskkatolsk.no/Sentrale%20sider%20-%20engelsk/index.htm

Bishop Roald Flemstad spoke at Forward in Faith along with some of the flying bishops who are now in the English Ordinariate.

[Claud]

That was the article’s author, not Benedict.

And not trying to be insulting here but just curious...why is that language so grating? Lutherans call themselves that. Anglicans never called themselves “Cranmerians” that I’m aware of.

[BillyBoy]

>> :: followers of Martin Luther :: <<

>> Yo! Papa Benny! You just “lost” all the real Lutherans with that rhetoric <<

Referring to Lutherans as "followers of Martin Luther" is inappropriate rhetoric? What would you suggest the Pope refer to them as? Should he also avoid referring to members of the Ayn Rand society as "followers of Ayn Rand"?

[SecondAmendment]

:: followers of Martin Luther ::

Roman Catholicism, the Democrat Party of Christianity.

[vladimir998]

Keep your eye on this group too: http://anglolutherancatholic.org/ Their Archbishop Emeritus, Irl Gladfelter, has stepped down (health reasons I believe) and is trying to be recieved into the Catholic Church on his own.

[Cletus.D.Yokel]

So, would a Roman Catholic be insulted if they were termed as a “follower” of Il Papa; AKA a “papist”? I would say that, learning from the past, yes, in the extreme and enough to torture, beat and behead (The Spanish Inquisition).

(The Randian reference is non-sequitor when speaking of the church militant.)

Just a bad way to present a message regarding Faith and salvation.

He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. - Mark 16:16

[wideawake]

When did the Pope use “that rhetoric”?

[Cletus.D.Yokel]

That argument can only be categorized as “Chicago-style”.

Do you really believe that Cd. Koch didn’t get his rhetoric approved by the Vatican?

[ArrogantBustard]

Rather than hurling incendiary rhetoric and brainless insults, you might try offering constructive comments on this forum.

You might even answer reasonable questions:

What, exactly, does "Lutheran" mean? What distinction are the "Lutheran Church Missouri Synod", "Evangelical Lutheran Church in America", "Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod" and similarly named bodies making when they label themselves "Lutheran"?

I note, by contrast, than no body or organization calls itself "papist".

[Buckeye McFrog]

and we’ll throw in a 30% discount on Indulgences to sweeten the deal...

[Cletus.D.Yokel]

Your suggestion will be taken under consideration. Please don’t be offended if I reject it out-of-hand.

[Claud]

I’ve been called worse. :)

[ArrogantBustard]

Cletus, your behaviour does not offend me.

It informs me as to your worth, and to the worth of your particular religious sect, whatever it may be.

[wideawake]

That argument can only be categorized as “Chicago-style”.

Nice sidestep.

Do you really believe that Cd. Koch didn’t get his rhetoric approved by the Vatican?

Putting aside the fact that Cardinals do not get their words "pre-approved" by "the Vatican", can you tell me when Cardinal Koch used the rhetoric you're complaining of?

Searching German sites, he is quoted as referring to the Lutherans as "Lutherans", "the Lutheran tradition", "Lutheran communities", etc. and not as "followers of Martin Luther."

[SecondAmendment]

No offense taken, I knew my post would be provocative, but it is an observation I have made through my conversion from a Catholic to a Lutheran.

Specifially:

• The Catholic church unilaterally asserts they are the only legitimate Christian Church
• Much of the Catholic Church's teachings are not grounded in scripture.
• The Church has dishonestly represented the views, teachings, and history of the Protestant churches, and especially the Lutherans
• The Church dismisses all Protestant criticisms with Ad-Homeinem attacks, never addressing the actual substance of any arguments.
• The Church has a very top down bureaucratic structure, always requiring a priest for any religious function
• The Church constantly pushes an agenda of "Social Justice", and personal sacrifice while having vast riches in the Vatican.
• The Church has actively shielded and protected priests from wrong doing instead of fully cooperating with the authorities.

This is of course not a blanket statement, there are many good Catholic lay people and Priests, but the issues I have listed are real and systematic within the Church.

Not to mention virtually all positions of the Church with the exception of Abortion and Birth Control are IDENTICAL to those of the Democrat Party (http://usccb.org).

[gas_dr]

Ok...very valid question. What does Lutheran mean? Lutheran belief is based on sola scriptura that the scripture is the only authority for salvation. That salvation was completed once and for all with Christ the sacrificial lamb of God living perfectly under the law and then becoming the sacrificial lamb to bear Gods wrath in my stead. Lutheran faith holds firm the Pauline text that it is by grace that we are saved through faith and not the works of our hands. Some criticize this stance that there are issues that address works in scripture with is true, but salvation is obtainable only through faith. Once saved, it becomes natural to want to do the works of God and love wholesome, but we understand all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans). We also understand that we need no intercession before our Father in heaven as we may go to Him though God the son, a d that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us with sighs and groans beyond hima. Understanding. The triune God has God the father who creates us, God the son who saves us and God the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us with the confession that Jesus is Lord and Savior.

Luther originally set to reform the Catholic Church serving his 95 thesis on the door at the Church in Whittenburg. At that time the church was apostate among other things selling indulgences and claiming that this would purchase forgiveness of sin without repentance and subsequently salvation, at that time the pope excommunicated Luther, and at the diet of Worms Luther was given the opportunity to rescind his teachings, but stood on the Word of God and refused claiming the Word of God was inerrant and not subject to the papal interpretation. He further denied the diety of the pope. Upon excommunication, the Protestant movement was born with Lutherans becoming the first Protestant Christian church. Subsequent to this, Protestantism grew with Calvinism, Zwingli and other leaders of Protestant perspective from which are born Methodism and other denominations. All Protestants accept the low church perspective that priests and hierarchical men are not required to petition God and that our relationship is personal with God and not necessarily contingent on a relationship with a church body per se.

jJust as there are competing branches I. Catholicism ... Strict, reform, and other parts of the church, In the Lutheran church there are synods, some conservative (Wisconsin, Missouri, and LCMC Lutheran church in mission for Christ) and more liberal factions...namely the ELCA. Approximately four years ago at the biennial ELCA council a schism occurred when the very livable bishop of St. Paul rammed down the throat by a single vote a statement of bound conscious and human sexuality that essentially made blessing of gay marriage allowed. This also moved the standards and covenants of ministry to include monogamous homosexual clergy. Many, including myself, saw this as an apostasy and our individual congregations left the ELCA. This synod continues to be dwindling based on men not scripture...sort of what happened all the way back in 1517 Germany.

Whatever the perspective, we are Christian first accepting the perfection of salvation in Christ crucified the real presence of Christ at holy communion, and believe that we can only be saved by faith as presented in the Bible...the law telling us how we should love, and the gospel proclaiming the good news of salvation when we fail. We then practice our faith by the great commission of going and proclaiming the good news to all, baptizing in the name of the triune God.

and for my Lutheran friends they will understand this little joke...this is most certainly true :)

[SecondAmendment]

Fair question, I belong to the Missouri Synod, and I think they can best answer some of your questions:

http://www.lcms.org/