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Childish behavior |
Posted on 01/16/2013 8:57:49 AM PST by marshmallow
General audience, Benedict XVI defines the Incarnation as "something unimaginable, the face of God can be seen, the process that began with Abraham is fulfilled." The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, he asks "for the great gift" to "proclaim together that Jesus is the Savior of the world."
Vatican City (AsiaNews) - "The desire to know the face of God is in every man, even the atheists," but this desire is only realized by following Christ, in whom, in the Incarnation, "something unimaginable took place, the journey that began with Abraham is fulfilled. He is the Son, the fullness of all Revelation; the mediator who shows us the face of God. "
And "to proclaim together that Jesus is the Saviour of the world" Benedict XVI asked for incessant prayers for "the great gift" of Christian unity in the forthcoming week, which begins on the 18th of this month.
Previously, in his catechesis, he again reflected on the meaning of Christmas, in a commentary on John's Gospel in which the apostle Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father. The answer of Jesus, "introduces us to the heart of the Church's Christological faith; For the Lord says: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (Jn 14:9).This expression summarizes the novelty of the New Testament, the novelty that appeared in the cave of Bethlehem: God can be seen, he showed his face is visible in Jesus Christ".
The theme of "seeking the face of God" is present throughout the Old Testament, so much so that the Hebrew term "face", occurs no less than 400 times, 100 of which refer to God." The of Jewish religion which the religion forbids all images, "for God can not be depicted," and "can not be reduced to an object," tells us that "God...
(Excerpt) Read more at asianews.it ...
Would you mind terribly if I joined you? Catching up on this thread with most of my favourite FReepers having a punch-up is giving me a headache.It's like being at a big Italian wedding with the whole family yelling at each other.
For myself.Right now where I am and when I am,ignorance looks temptingly blissfull.I can't get my head around this so for now I'm happy to let the infinite remain incomprehensible to the finite.That may of course change but right now I don't think I care.
I think “unfree will” is distinct from “will”, but I think “will” implies the ability to freely choose.
“No violence” implies that the will was not directed. Therefore, whatever the state of that will, the will that was present was making the decisions for that being.
Therefore, even a depraved will is free. It will, however, lean toward depravity in all its decisions.
Reading the *church fathers*? To understand the tenets of faith? For real?
My faith is in Jesus, not *correct* doctrine, the *faith*, or the writings of the *church fathers*.
I'm not interested in the *church fathers*. Not from the Catholics and not from you.
What's wrong with....
1 Corinthians 2:1-5 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Yes.
The problem is not with the operation our will, it is with our wants.
Does a Human Free Will have the power to change History of the destiny of others?
History by definition means past events. How does one change the past?
Did Ted Bundy's Free Will change the destiny of his victims or were they predestined according to the will of God to die at his hands?
The either/or dichotomy on which the question is premised is purely speculative and hypothetical. From a merely human perspective we can contemplate how the destiny of many people might theoretically have been different if not for Ted Bundy's wickedness and cruel actions, but God knows the end from the beginning. What does Job say when the Sabeans attack his family and reduce him to poverty? "The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord."
What do the Apostles say about the purpose of the Jews, as well as Herod and Pontius Pilate to destroy Jesus? That they did "... whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (Acts 4:28) Peter says that Christ was delivered to death "by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God", (Acts 2:23)
I admit to you that I have often speculated how things might have been different if this or that had not happened by human design or action.
I will give a very personal example. Four years ago my youngest son stabbed my oldest son, age 28, one time in the heart and killed him.
My youngest son is currently serving a 15 year sentence for voluntary manslaughter. There are a plethora of mitigating circumstances but I won't go into all that. The point is that God has used this indescribable pain and loss to bring miraculous good to us, much of which has been to our youngest son, who now loves the Lord and is a tremendous encouragement to us all.
The Scriptures compel me to admit and acknowledge God's omniscience and absolute sovereignty in ALL things. God was not and is not a helpless bystander waiting for fortuitous events as if his judgments depended on the will of man.
I say with Job, "The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord."
Cordially,
As for me:
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. – Galatians 1:11-19
No, there is no truth in it. The facts are that Paul wrote to make the claim God is choosing men, not the other way round. All efforts to soften this claim are foolish, man-centered heresy. Look back at history and you will find Augustine argued against much of this (along with some error on his own) and the Reformers revived the arguments. Theirs focus was on Arminias and related heresies, as well as the vast error developed by the RCC (sacerdotalism, indulgences, mariolatry, absolution, purgatory, etc.). If you think my words were rude, you may wish to read Luther's "Bondage of the Will."
Additionally, there are several places in Paul's & Peter's letters where they got harsh and pointed. "You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you..." etc. Strong language is not rude, nor unkind when the rebuke is necessary to point out bizarre error. Perhaps some like sentimentality and smarmy talk in order to sound "spiritual", but if the content is from the pit, it needs said. Aquinas was wrong and so is the RCC. Nevertheless, God is managing even that.
I give you the last word here, my FRiend. I must return to work. Grace to you.
Who said it was the other way around? Not any of us did that I have seen.
>>Additionally, there are several places in Paul's & Peter's letters where they got harsh and pointed.<<
I have no problem with being pointed or even harsh if you are not contradicted in your beliefs by scripture. If you remember correctly Paul was rather knowledable having been taught first by Jesus than given the words to write by the Holy Spirit. One needs to pray diligently for guidance by the Holy Spirit when studying scripture. After all it was He who inspired the words. So with that in mind let’s look at those words. What they are and in what order they have been given.
One of the verses used by those who would have us believe in their concept to “predestination” use Romans 8:29 so let’s look at it. Read it carefully and notice the order of the words.
Romans 8:29, those He foreknew (proginóskó) He also predestined (Proorizó).
Proginóskó - Definition: I know beforehand, foreknow.
Proorizó - Definition: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.
Did you notice that the “foreknew” came before the “predestined”? Let me try to put that in a way that may shed some light. Those He knew ahead of time would accept and follow Him were the ones He predestined to to be conformed to the image of his Son. He didn’t just arbitrarily “predestine”. He knew who would accept and follow and it was those He predestined. Keep in mind that word “predestined” is a human word. When scripture says “predestined” it only means “before we were here” He foreknew and because He already knew He predestined. Predestined only in the sense that He knew forever but to us it was “predestined”.
The concept of “predestination” as taught by the Calvinists with the intent they mean for it to be believed is error in understanding what God was saying. God doesn’t arbitrarily assign to either heaven or hell. He “foreknew” but it may look to us as being arbitrary or we somehow try to duck the responsibility to study by saying something like “we don’t know God’s mind” and just go with what we believe. God told us in scripture what He was doing. If we ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit we will see what He is saying.
See 547
Well, you won't get a quarrel on that if that the best I can do :O).
I'm "reading" an interesting trestist by Johnathan Edwards called "A Careful And Strict Inquiry Into The Modern Prevailing Notions Of That Freedom Of Will" This is not light reading or for the faint of heart (just look at the title). And it's about 150 pages of very intense reading. However, so far he lays out some very interesting points. But I don't want to give away the ending.
The definition for will comes straight from dictionary.com so this is the univerally accepted term. It is understandable to confuse the terms "will" and "choice". People frequently do. Choice is the will in action.
Here is an excellent article between "free will" and "free choice":
Do we really have free-will? Does scripture say we have free-will? Free-will is defined as “the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies; the power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.” Very telling in the definition is “unconstrained by external circumstances.” Is this an ability that God’s creation, whether human or animal, has? Do we really have the ability to make a choice that excludes all influence? The answer is no, all of our choices are based on something external. Only God has the ability to choose based on no outside or external influence.
Every choice that we make is based on some outside influence whether the choice is to do something unpleasant over something pleasant. For instance, a pile of dishes may be in your sink but there’s a television show that you want to watch. You have two choices, either wash the dishes or watch the television show. You may choose to watch the television show and wash the dishes later. The influence that prompts you to watch the television show over washing the dirty dishes could be that it is more pleasant and the dishes are not going anywhere and you can deal with the dishes after the show. The scenario could change if you were expecting guests and instead of watching the television show, you wash the dishes. You now do something unpleasant instead of the more pleasant activity because the outside influence is the guests and there is not time to watch the show and wash the dishes before they arrive. There is always something that influences us to do a particular thing.
Man does not have free-will, man has free-choice. Even in the very beginning, in the Garden of Eden when the first sin that was committed that affected all of creation from there forth, was a freedom of choice, not free-will. There was an influence that Eve considered. After Eve told the serpent that God had commanded that they may eat of any fruit in the garden except from the tree in the midst of the garden, the serpent replied that ‘you shall surly not die.” “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.”
What was the influence? Eve saw that the fruit was good for food, that it was a delight to the eyes and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she chose to eat and gave some to her husband. Prior to that, there is no indication in scripture that either Adam or Eve even considered eating of that fruit. It was not until Eve was influenced by the serpent who stated to her that she will not die and that to eat of it, she will be like God, knowing good and evil. That one choice has affected all of creation but it was a choice based on some influence, not free-will that contained no outside influence. The influence was a desire to be wise.
Even before the fall, Adam & Eve did not eat of the fruit because God commanded them not to. The tree was there and accessible to them. They did not because of an outside influence – God. He said don’t eat of it and they did not. Again, no indication in scripture that they circled the tree, walked by the tree and thought about it, had discussions about whether they should give it a try. God said no and they did not. They were influenced by God’s command not to. The serpent came along and influenced Eve to eat of it and she chose to do so.
Only God has the ability to act based on nothing. Man can freely choose but all of his choices will be based on some influence. Everything that exists is a creation of God and we can only make choices based on His creation. Even a choice to eat is based on God’s creation of hunger. God created feeling of hunger so that man will eat and sustain himself.
Only God has free-will.
While I applaud your support of sola scriptura, one has to wonder if you read any of these articles posted on FR?
I do. I want to understand where the Catholics and others who are in error get their error from and how it progressed over time.
And here I was working under the assumption that both you and metmom were Catholic.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. The only problem you have is that your point undermines your argument. If God chooses only those who he foresaw would choose him, then the whole process is out of God's hands and therefore the choice of who makes it into heaven would be entirely arbitrary.
It is God who, in his infinite wisdom, determines who will be his elect. His reasons are entirely unknown to us, but we can rest assured that while the decisions of Men are often capricious and arbitrary, the decisions of God are NEVER capricious or arbitrary.
Whose decision would you be more comfortable with in regard to your own destiny? Yours or God's?
But the words of God are spirit and life whereas the words of men are neither spirit nor life.
His words come alive in us Christians whereas the words of men inform us.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. - I Cor 2:11-13
For the most part, CB, that is the easiest way to explain it. It's got issues, though.
1. The Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. So, when was the foundation of the world. I would call it "founding" as a synonym, so that would mean that passage means "Even at the time of Creation it was already clear that Jesus would have to pay the sin penalty on Calvary."
Did God see you being lost first or did He see Jesus being slain first? Why did He see Jesus needing to be slain...what did He see that made that necessary?
2. Are you saved because you were smart enough to believe and others are lost because they were too dumb to believe? Does that mean you are saved because you figured it out? If so, isn't that a clear indication that there is something better in YOU that brought about your salvation as opposed to that sorry sinner over there who didn't figure it out? (By grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works so that no man can boast.)
If you don't bridge that gap about "merited favor", then your theory has at least one hole in it.
Some fix that "hole" by insisting that God opens the minds of the saved and not of the lost.
Acts 16: 14A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.15And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
Note that the Lord didn't just "open her heart". He opened to heart "to respond to the gospel", i.e., positively respond.
So, the Lord foreknew those who believed, but He is the One who prompted them to be believers. In other words, it is all of God, and nothing to do with us.
I see no way around this yet, not even an appeal to prevenient grace in the life of everyone. For if they "gradually become aware of the goodness of God through His prevenient grace", then again, they were smart enough to see it and others weren't.
So, I just allow that, along with the Apostle Paul and Lydia, that the Lord made me awake, that I didn't do it myself.
Indeed, the Israelis had signs aplenty and the words of God handed to them in power - but without His calling, it wasn't enough:
That is a perfect passage about Moses and Israel, Sister A-G.
We’ve got to wonder how they went through the Red Sea and still didn’t believe, but that’s what happened for many (most?) of them.
As the scripture said, the Lord hadn’t given them the heart to perceive.
I was.
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