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To: CynicalBear
"There was truth in what Aquinas wrote. It does take some prayerful concentration to understand what he is trying to say but in this I will (don’t faint stfassisi or don’t say I didn’t warn ya) agree with stfassisi. If I am reading it correctly, regarding Esau, Aquinas answers this situation correctly."

No, there is no truth in it. The facts are that Paul wrote to make the claim God is choosing men, not the other way round. All efforts to soften this claim are foolish, man-centered heresy. Look back at history and you will find Augustine argued against much of this (along with some error on his own) and the Reformers revived the arguments. Theirs focus was on Arminias and related heresies, as well as the vast error developed by the RCC (sacerdotalism, indulgences, mariolatry, absolution, purgatory, etc.). If you think my words were rude, you may wish to read Luther's "Bondage of the Will."

Additionally, there are several places in Paul's & Peter's letters where they got harsh and pointed. "You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you..." etc. Strong language is not rude, nor unkind when the rebuke is necessary to point out bizarre error. Perhaps some like sentimentality and smarmy talk in order to sound "spiritual", but if the content is from the pit, it needs said. Aquinas was wrong and so is the RCC. Nevertheless, God is managing even that.

I give you the last word here, my FRiend. I must return to work. Grace to you.

546 posted on 01/29/2013 8:37:28 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; metmom; HarleyD; P-Marlowe; xzins
>>The facts are that Paul wrote to make the claim God is choosing men, not the other way round.<<

Who said it was the other way around? Not any of us did that I have seen.

>>Additionally, there are several places in Paul's & Peter's letters where they got harsh and pointed.<<

I have no problem with being pointed or even harsh if you are not contradicted in your beliefs by scripture. If you remember correctly Paul was rather knowledable having been taught first by Jesus than given the words to write by the Holy Spirit. One needs to pray diligently for guidance by the Holy Spirit when studying scripture. After all it was He who inspired the words. So with that in mind let’s look at those words. What they are and in what order they have been given.

One of the verses used by those who would have us believe in their concept to “predestination” use Romans 8:29 so let’s look at it. Read it carefully and notice the order of the words.

Romans 8:29, those He foreknew (proginóskó) He also predestined (Proorizó).

Proginóskó - Definition: I know beforehand, foreknow.
Proorizó - Definition: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

Did you notice that the “foreknew” came before the “predestined”? Let me try to put that in a way that may shed some light. Those He knew ahead of time would accept and follow Him were the ones He predestined to to be conformed to the image of his Son. He didn’t just arbitrarily “predestine”. He knew who would accept and follow and it was those He predestined. Keep in mind that word “predestined” is a human word. When scripture says “predestined” it only means “before we were here” He foreknew and because He already knew He predestined. Predestined only in the sense that He knew forever but to us it was “predestined”.

The concept of “predestination” as taught by the Calvinists with the intent they mean for it to be believed is error in understanding what God was saying. God doesn’t arbitrarily assign to either heaven or hell. He “foreknew” but it may look to us as being arbitrary or we somehow try to duck the responsibility to study by saying something like “we don’t know God’s mind” and just go with what we believe. God told us in scripture what He was doing. If we ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit we will see what He is saying.

547 posted on 01/29/2013 3:41:04 PM PST by CynicalBear
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