Posted on 01/12/2013 9:45:29 AM PST by count-your-change
Although once considered a binding "probable opinion" by the Catholic church, in 1950 the belief that the virgin Mary war taken into heaven "body and soul" was declared dogma for Catholic believers.
As the Catholic Encyclopedia notes in agreement with the Catechism of the Catholic church:
(Today, the belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is universal in the East and in the West; according to Benedict XIV (De Festis B.V.M., I, viii, 18) it is a probable opinion, which to deny were impious and blasphemous.)
(Note: By promulgating the Bull Munificentissimus Deus, 1 November, 1950, Pope Pius XII declared infallibly that the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary was a dogma of the Catholic Faith)
But what is the evidence claimed in support of this belief that Mary was taken "body and soul" into heaven?
In summation the catholic Encyclopeia offers:
(St. John of Damascus (P.G., I, 96) thus formulates the tradition of the Church of Jerusalem: St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven)
(Excerpt) Read more at newadvent.org › Catholic Encyclopedia ...
Two things, at least...If we can't find it in the scriptures, there's no evidence to prove that the teaching came from God...And the bible says to prove all things...The only way to prove all things is to have a standard from which to prove things...The bible, the words of God obviously have to be that standard...
And when we can read simple scripture that says 'all have sinned', we know that all have sinned, including Mary...
All have sinned except Mary is a contradiction to God's word...Your religion would have us ignore God's word and instead believe your religion has something called the 'deposit of faith' and is infallible when it comes to things like this Mary assumption thing when there is zero evidence from God's word...
Far too many of your religion's traditions are contrary to the words of God...
...If we can’t find it in the scriptures, there’s no evidence to prove that the teaching came from God...
Another odd belief.
If it is taught by the Apostles who God Appointed, that can be trusted. After all, they WROTE the Bible under His guidance. Now you want to muzzle them. For shame.
Please watch it: it's short, and helps you see that Biblically the Ark symbolizes Mary (and this saves me many paragraphs of typed explanation!)
The Ark carried objects, like bits of manna and the tables of the Law, associated with God's saving work in Exodus. And Mary who bore the Living Bread, the Lawgiver, the Savior Himself, the very Word of God in the flesh, was she LESS sacred than that? Of course she is more sacred than the Ark, because she carried the Lord. It is reasonable to think carefully about how the Ark, now in heaven, prefigures Mary in heaven.
Now, the Ark was plated with gold on account of its preciousness because of carrying things related to God.. Read in their Christological sense (which Christ Himself recommended, as in Luke 24) – Mary, the King’s chosen one, is also clothed in gold; and is also TAKEN UP to the King:
Psalm 45:9-17Daughters of kings are among thy precious ones, A queen stands at thy right hand, In pure gold of Ophir.
All glory is the daughter of the king within, of gold-embroidered work is her clothing.
In divers colors she is brought up to the king,
Virgins -- after her -- her companions, Are brought to thee.
They are brought with joy and gladness, They come up into the palace of the king.
I make mention of thy name in all generations, therefore do peoples praise thee, to the age, and for ever!
This prophecy is not about some queen-consort of David or Solomon (because all generations have not praised them forever: we don't even know their names.) This prophecy is for Mary, who IS praised by all generations forever, as it says in the Gospel of Luke! It is she who, as in the Psalm, stands at His right hand, who was brought up into the palace of the King.
Likewise the Ark (prefiguring Mary) goes with the Lord to His resting-place:
Psalm 132:8The woman clothed with the sun [Revelation 12:1–2] parallels the woman of the Genesis 3 prophecy (and hence Mary): Genesis prophesies enmity between “The Woman” and the serpent; and that enmity is re-mirrored through Scripture (Judith vs Holofernes, Jael vs. Barak) and reflects the prophecy that God would place "enmities between thee [i.e. Satan] and the woman, and thy seed and her seed" --- clear through to Revelation, where Satan "was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed" (Rev. 12:17).
"Arise, O Lord, into thy resting place: thou and the ark, which thou hast sanctified"
The rest of her seed: that’s us, All these passages – viz., John 14:3, Isaiah 60:13, Luke 1:28, Song of Songs 8:5, 1st Corinthians 15:21–26, Psalms 132:8, Psalms 45:9–17, Song of Songs 3:6, 4:8, 6:9, Genesis 3:15, and Revelation 12:1–2 – form a composite picture of Mary’s cooperation in the war against the Serpent, and her being taken up to be with her Lord.
You'll not find a Christian in the first millennium of Christianity, who objected to, or raised a doubt about the Dormition, which we in the West call the Assumption. There is no theological reason to do so, since what is posited of Mary is simply what we look forward to for all who are saved by Christ: that we will rise from our graves and be raised body and soul to heaven.
Since this what we all expect, thanks to Jesus' saving work --- (and we are rightly called sinners!) --- it's not reasonable to say it couldn't have happened prospectively, to Jesus' own Mother (who is rightly called Blessed and Full of Grace). Especially since it already happened to Enoch and Elijah, prospectively the fruit of Christ's merits even in OT times.
I can imagine the indignation of a millennium of Christians who went before us:
"Enoch walked with God, Elijah went deathless to heaven in a Chariot of Fire, but one far greater than Enoch and Elijah, the mother from whose flesh the Word was made Flesh, was left to rot in the ground? T'aint fittin," they'd say. "Just t'aint fittin'."
Bless you, roamer_1. From a roamer home in Rome :o)
You call it a Christian TRUTH yet refuse to even address the evidence from that Christian guide, the Bible, that it is not basic, not truth, and therefore, not Christian.
So be it but as for sects that's what the enemies of “the way”, Christianity, called it in derision.
““All of the Lent and Easter abomination is pagan and God clearly condemned it in scripture.”
“God doesn’t smile down on people who celebrate Easter.”
At a minimum do try not to confuse one thread with another or resort to personal vitriol.
Sorry but you have no evidence anything was ever taught by the apostles outside of scripture...
ROTFLMAO!
Scripture was written after the Apostles died, you know that, right?
Well that may be so with Catholic bibles...My bible was written by the apostles, while they were alive...
ROTFLMAO!
Scripture was written after the Apostles died, you know that, right?
Well that may be so with Catholic bibles...My bible was written by the apostles, while they were alive...
“...My bible was written by the apostles, while they were alive...”
And you know this how?
**I would highly recommend some research. Believing something just because everyone else does is not faith, it’s herd mentality.**
You mean like democrats do? lol
**LOL! That cannot be what one bases the assumption of Mary on! The LACK of evidence is evidence?**
Listen, you troublemaker, there’s a whole industry making all these religious symbols, statues, statuettes, dashboard Marys, etc. You are trying to put people out of work. Why, about four years ago I was dispatched to Bollingbrook, IL and picked up about 6 tons of St. Thomas of Aquinas necklaces (rosaries?). I delivered them to a distibuter in Mt Pleasant, IA. They were made in Chynah, iirc.
The sleeping soul of Mary is waiting for the trump of God, just like all the other dead saints.
you are arguing with a Jehovah’s Witness, so they won’t believe in the Trinity or the divinity of Christ either — that’s sola scriptura to them...
There is no such thing as soul sleep --> Luke 8:52 uses sleep as a euphemism for death as does 1 Thess 4:13-18 and is evident in Phil 1:23 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
. As per Hebrews 9:27 7 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, you see that the moment we die we get judged
Luke 16:19-23 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
no soul sleep, not rev 20:4 either
Are you mistaking the apostles for the followers of Mohammed?
Because the OT wasn't written by Christ's apostles and neither was Mark or Luke Apostles of Christ
did you mistake the Bible for r Hadiths or Sunnah?
I don't know anything about that Izlamist stuff like you do...
And you can’t argue for either doctrine as you cannot support either from the Scriptures.
the Ark of the Covenant is in heaven, and the Ark prefigures Mary.
Mary did not go before Israel in battle. It was not Mary who destroyed Israel's enemies with incredible power... Mary is not the Mercy Seat of YHWH. The blood of sinners is not cast upon Mary. Mary does not dwell in the Holy of Holies. These are attributes of Yeshua.
Likewise, Yeshua is the perfect container of the Law and the promises of YHWH. Every single thing mentioned wrt the Ark in your post, and in the vid you gave me, points inexorably to Yeshua, and to *no* other... And I consider the whole 'Ark prefigures Mary' thing to be utter blasphemy.
Mary, the King’s chosen one, is also clothed in gold; and is also TAKEN UP to the King:
Your reading of Ps49 is mislead. In it's context, it is the Return of the King, and the aftermath wherein He comes to claim His Bride. His BRIDE is the new Eve, not His mother... It is His BRIDE that is the queen. I do not understand why the Roman church promotes this incestuous dialog.
The woman clothed with the sun [Revelation 12:1–2] parallels the woman of the Genesis 3 prophecy (and hence Mary): [...] where Satan "was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed" (Rev. 12:17).
The rest of her seed: that’s us
First of all, the primary use of Rev 12's woman is as an astrological and astronomical symbol. It shows a particular TIME. If one does not understand that value, one will not find anything useful at all.
Secondly, but still primarily, the woman is Israel, as prefigured and linked to Joseph's dream. Mary figures in, to be sure, as the virgin... But she did not flee to the wilderness... Israel did. And her offspring have the testimony of Yeshua AND keep the commandments of YHWH. That ain't US. WE do not keep the commandments. I would assert, btw, that it isn't Judaism either, because they don't have the testimony of Yeshua... Ergo, those that are her offspring are a different subset that no one is looking at.
All these passages [...] form a composite picture of Mary’s cooperation in the war against the Serpent, and her being taken up to be with her Lord.
No... Again this conflation of Mary with the Daughter of Israel is a mistake of huge proportion, and one must begin from mariology to see these proofs which you offer, which is specifically bass-ackwards. One must begin with the scriptures and see if they point to Mary, which they most certainly do not. They point to the prophetic Daughter of Israel, and they point to the Bride of Yeshua (both likely being the very same thing by the time it is done).
You'll not find a Christian in the first millennium of Christianity, who objected to, or raised a doubt about the Dormition, which we in the West call the Assumption.
An argument from silence is no argument at all, especially when the historical record is so obviously inaccurate (to be kind)... All the more so when the keepers thereof have been caught red-handed inserting inclusions and sanctioning forgery. No, an appeal to church fathers will be wasted upon me entirely.
There is no theological reason to do so, since what is posited of Mary is simply what we look forward to for all who are saved by Christ: that we will rise from our graves and be raised body and soul to heaven.
Since this what we all expect, thanks to Jesus' saving work --- (and we are rightly called sinners!) --- it's not reasonable to say it couldn't have happened prospectively, to Jesus' own Mother (who is rightly called Blessed and Full of Grace). Especially since it already happened to Enoch and Elijah, prospectively the fruit of Christ's merits even in OT times.
What y'all have made of Mary did not happen to Elijah and to Enoch - To point to them without all of the titles of nobility and awesome powers supposedly granted to Mary makes them out to be no comparison at all.
And there IS a theological reason not to do so - Because the history of Elijah and Enoch are IN THE BOOK - Mary is not.
"Enoch walked with God, Elijah went deathless to heaven in a Chariot of Fire, but one far greater than Enoch and Elijah, the mother from whose flesh the Word was made Flesh, was left to rot in the ground? T'aint fittin," they'd say. "Just t'aint fittin'."
One far greater? Who has adjudged that to be so? Are we not all brothers? The One who is 'far greater is Yeshua. Keep your eyes upon Him. Give Him the glory that you find yourself wanting to give to any mortal sack-o-meat. That is where such things belong.
Bless you, roamer_1. From a roamer home in Rome :o)
Same back atcha! Say howdy to your old man for me too : )
You mean like democrats do? lol
Yup... And like the Republican fanbois try to get us to do every time an election comes around.... And I would submit that it is little wonder thast adherents of the Roman church also tend to adhere to the Democrats - They *like* herd mentality. And it is coincidentally why The Christian Right tends largely to Evangelicals, where such a herd mentality tends to be avoided.
Listen, you troublemaker [...]
Yeah... Sorry about that. Nah... not really sorry about it at all :D
It has been my experience that far too many of your claims about Catholic traditions are contrary to the truth.
"There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church. ....As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do." - The Venerable and Most Reverend [Archbishop] Fulton John Sheen
Peace be with you.
Gen 1:26. The phrase :"our image" is the correct translation from the Hebrew. "Our" is definitely plural.
Later on in John 14:9 Jesus Himself says that if you have seen Him you have seen the Father. He wasn't talking about an illustration, or a mirror, or figuratively.
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