11 Reasons the Authority of Christianity Is Centered on St. Peter and Rome

stpeterslist ^ | December 19, 2012

[daniel1212]

Muslims have the same God that Catholics have

LUMEN GENTIUM, 16: But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. - http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

Rome clearly states that Muslims, along with us adore the one and merciful God, and this is not the "unknown God" among many possibles that Paul referred to in Acts 17, but much the opposite, Islam claims a certain distinct being as the true God, and imagines to correct us as ones who are in error (regardless of the fact that not one ancient MSS even from before Muhammad agrees with the Islamic "corrective" contradictions).

I know that RCAs labor to reconcile this, this example alone illustrates how RCs cannot escape the need for interpretation of their supreme authority, and is one of the reasons for the RC sects.

The other one is if it you believe that Mary can be prayed to (as the Popes do) and if you believe that salvation comes from Mary without the help of Jesus as Popes have stated as truth.

I know of no statement that in context states the latter. The closest that comes to mind is one attributed to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “

'...sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus...[who] does not at once, answer anyone who invokes him, but only does so after just judgment. But if the name of his mother Mary is invoked, her merits intercede so that he is answered even if the merits of him who invoked her do not deserve it.” (http://www.equip.org/PDF/JAC166.pdf)

However, i cannot find the actual source. However, similar excess exaltations which are "above that which is written" (cf. 1 Cor. 4:6) abound:

"As Mother of the Word Incarnate, Mary was elevated to a certain equality with the Heavenly Father."

"surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven."

"It was not only during the Passion that Jesus and Mary suffer ed for our sins, for all their lives that heartrending vision was before them in every detail, and never for a moment forgotten."

"I believe you are thinking of Next to God, she deserves the highest praise......all graces of the Precious Blood come through Mary. No grace is given without her intercession.'

"The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse. This is why she is the mediatrix of all graces given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose."

Sources for above: here :

We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone. - Ten Series of Meditations on the Mysteries of the Rosary by John Ferraro

The below attributed quotes are from "The glories of Mary, mother of God,' by Alphonsus Liguori, January 1833, (at the time of the canonization of Liguori nothing was found in his writings meriting censure),

It is a reflection of St. Augustine, that as Mary merited to give human flesh to the Son of God, and thereby prepared the price of our redemption, she is consequently more enabled to obtain our salvation, than all the redeemed together. " You then can entirely save us, O Mary," says St. John Dama scene to her, " for your authority of Mother, gives an irresistible force to your prayers. p. 135

the height of grace. Mary is all my confidence, Mary is the foundation of my hope." p. 145

" You then can entirely save us, O Mary," says St. John Dama scene to her, " for your authority of Mo ther, gives an irresistible force to your prayers. O admirable goodness of our God, who to effect our future happiness, has given us an advocate that gains every cause in which she pleads. p. 145

It is by me they govern their senses and rule over their passions, that they may render themselves worthy of reigning eternally in heaven." Mary is that tower, whence it is said in the Canticles, a thousand bucklers are sus pended with all the arms of the valiant men. To all her servants who have recourse to her in their combats, she is as it were an impregnable tower fortified with arms of every description to enable them to fight against hell. p. 59

...St. Antoninus says, " as those from whom Mary turns her mer ciful eyes, cannot be saved, it necessarily follows, that those on whom she looks with benignity, will share in eternal glory." p. 159

"...the people who will not serve you [Mary] shall perish," ... "he who does not invoke her shall have no share in the kingdom of God ;" p. 159

"...St. Ignatius Martyr, had pronounced, that a sinner can only be saved by having recourse to the blessed Virgin, whose infinite mercy obtains salvation for those who are condemned by infinite justice." p. 146

David already prayed the Lord to preserve him from bell, because of his zeal for the honor of Mary. " Lord" said he, " I have loved the beauty of thy house, let not my soul perish with the impious." He says "of thy house," because Mary is that house of the purest gold, that God himself erected to be his habitation on earth, and his place of repose when he came to dwell amongst us. p. 162,63

When, therefore the winds blow, and the floods of temptation rise, let us say to Mary, what St. Peter said to Jesus Christ, " save us, we perish." p. 123

"...as Pharoah said to the Egyptians, when in want of bread, " go to Joseph," so when we ask some grace of God, he says to us, " go to Mary." " Christians" says Richard of St. Laurence, " can say to Mary, as the Egyptians to Joseph, " our salvation is in thy hands," and Cassian, that " the salvation of all men is in the protection of Mary." p. 124

"...we have not access to Jesus Christ but through Mary, that this divine Saviour whom she has given to the world, may receive us from her hands." p. 125

When Mary, he continues, presents herself before Jesus, the altar of reconciliation, to mediate for us, she ra ther seems to dictate than to supplicate, and has more the air of a Queen than of a subject. p. 131

Undoubtedly," says St. Bernard, " Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man, but because men fear that divine person who is destined one day to judge them, it has been necessary to give them [a mediator with the mediator, and none was so fit for this office as Mary his Mother...advocate, who knows how to appease the Lord... p. 141

She moreover procured me the abridgement of my torments in Purgatory the divine justice at her suit.. p. 41

The principal office given to Mary wben she appeared on earth was to raise man from sin and to reconcile him with God Pasce hados tuas Feed your goats said the Lord in creating her We know that sinners arc designated by the goats as the just are by the sheep The goats says William of Paris are confided to you O Mary that you may transform them into sheep thus whilst they deserved to be sent to the left hand they shall through your intercession be placed at the right 146,47 (http://books.google.com/books?id=o1cFAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Glories+of+Mary&hl=en&sa=X&ei=93kEUYrFIsix0QHHqoC4Dg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Glories%20of%20Mary&f=false)

"our compassionate and benign Mother was satisfied rather to endure any torment than that our souls should not be redeemed, and be left in their former state of perdition." "The Glories of Mary;" 1868; http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/7DOLORS.htm

[daniel1212]

I wrongfully misjudged you and look forward to honest debate with you from now on.

I have faults enough, and that is a gracious reply and all should agree with its spirit.

[mitch5501]

"...and all should agree with its spirit"

Amen!

[Syncro]

[I posted above that it is Catholic doctrine (from a Pope) that the] Muslims have the same God that Catholics have.
[Their god is called Allah.]

(A little more context for clarity)

LUMEN GENTIUM, 16: But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator.
In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham,
along with us adore the one and merciful God...

They may profess to hold the faith of Abraham, but they do NOT adore the one and merciful God...of the Bible.

Allah has a prophet, Muhammad who was a horrible sinner and murderer.

God the Father from the Bible has a Son, Jesus.

Allah has no son, so he cannot be the same God.

Islam's god converts by the sword (kills "infidels") if a person doesn't convert to their belief system.

The God of the Bible offers salvation by the blood sacrifice of His Son Jesus.

In fact the Islamists hate the fact that our God has a Son, and are working hard to change the Bible
to reflect the attributes of their god, instead of our Christian God.

A simple google search reveals the lengths they are going to to re write the Bible to be Islam friendly.

Google search: new bible translations muslim

Also Jihad Watch

They are trying to merge the God of the Bible with their false god.

The Pope is wrong.

The other one is if it you believe that Mary can be prayed to (as the Popes do) and if you believe
that salvation comes from Mary without the help of Jesus as Popes have stated as truth.

I know of no statement that in context states the latter.

Here are a few, and I have to apologize because I thought I posed the question on this
thread about Salvation through Mary, but it was a different one, nevertheless, I have asked it on this one.

“God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary.” (Pius IX: Encycl., Ubi primum, February 2, 1849.) — [p. 12, number 12] (No, we obtain everything through Jesus.)

“O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee..." (Leo XIII: Encycl., Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895.) — [p. 12, no. 13]

“God has committed to the Blessed Virgin Mary the treasury of all good things in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace and all salvation.” (Pius IX: Encycl., Ubi primum, February 2, 1894) — [p. 18, no. 38]

“O Holy Mother of God; to thee we lift our prayers for thou, powerful and merciful, art the Mediatrix of our salvation.” (Leo XIII: Encycl., Jucunda semper, September 8, 1894.) — [p. 19, no. 43] (No, that is Jesus, not Mary.)

13. “The Catholic Church has always and with justice put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God.” (Leo XIII: Encyclical, Supreme Apostolatus, September 1, 1883.) — [p. 32, no. 104] (Not Jesus, Mary..ALL her [The Catholic Church] hope and trust)

The Catholic Church puts ALL her hope in trust in Mary. Not Jesus.

Now I imagine it will be argued, Oh yes, it's through Mary, she points to Jesus.

That is not real clear from Popes IMO.

[daniel1212]

Now I imagine it will be argued, Oh yes, it's through Mary, she points to Jesus. That is not real clear from Popes IMO.

In fairness they do say this, but the problem is that of attributing to Mary degrees of powers, position and glory which are not shown given to any moral, or even angels, with more titles then are even given to the Lord Himself, and which overall do not have Scriptural warrant.

Believers are not even crowned till He returns, and not one believer prayed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, let alone having almost unlimited power, and not lacking power to save us due to prayers which are almost like commands, and thru whom all graces flow, and that no one has access to Jesus Christ but through Mary.

Yet Mary is quite marginal in the gospels, which is about the only place she appears, and it is the nature of Divine revelation to manifest extraordinary aspects of its characters, and all the supererogation of praise to Mary, beyond what the Holy Spirit provided, is effectively charging Him with neglect, though that is justified under the concept of Tradition, but which almost makes it a virtual bottomless pit (and no one can tells us where it ends).

Thus Catholics are engaging is what Paul warned about, thinking of souls "above that which is written," (1 Corinthians 4:6) "written" almost always meaning Scripture.

The Holy Spirit records far more from Paul and about Paul, showing his love for the church and for the lost and his great suffering for Christ, than is revealed about Mary, and with Paul being the vessel who brought forth the word of the Lord to the church far more than any other.

But we can imagine the howl from Catholics if we ever claimed such things for Paul as that which they extrapolate for Mary, and vainly attempt to justify.

[Syncro]

Thanks for your reply, daniel.

...the problem is that of attributing to Mary degrees of powers, position and glory which are not shown given to any moral, or even angels, with more titles then are even given to the Lord Himself, and which overall do not have Scriptural warrant.

Which tends to get naive people with out a good grounding in scripture to look to Mary instead of Jesus.

... power to save us due to prayers which are almost like commands, and thru whom all graces flow, and that no one has access to Jesus Christ but through Mary.

Which of course comes from twisting scriptures to fit the RCC convoluted viewpoint concerning Mary so as to seeming exalt her higher than Jesus.

Again, those not grounded in scripture, but rather more holding to dogmatic "traditions" will ascribe to Mary that which is not scriptural.

... all the supererogation of praise to Mary, beyond what the Holy Spirit provided, is effectively charging Him with neglect, though that is justified under the concept of Tradition, but which almost makes it a virtual bottomless pit (and no one can tells us where it ends).

Amen

[Elsie]

 

I'd like to thank the United States Government for protecting me and my kind.

 

 

 

 

 

You see, 40 years ago, my odds of making it out of the egg, alive, were very poor; about 80% of us died.

(http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=rachel-carson-silent-spring-1972-ddt-ban-birds-thrive)

But a lady discovered our plight and wrote a book that addressed our problem,

and, in 1972, a law was ammended protecting us even further. (http://www.fws.gov/midwest/eagle/protect/laws.html)

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I find strange is that the same government passed a law the very next year that allowed for killing

of unborn, and apparently unwanted, humans. Little ones still nestled safely in their Mother's womb.

Around 25% of them are dying before birth - on average nearly 3,300 - every day of the year.

I hear that by now, somewhere around 55 MILLION of them have perished.

Wouldn't that kind of mess up the humans plans for growth, and welfare, and

retirement?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Strange birds; these Homo Sapiens.

Perhaps they'll come to their senses  before they are ALL dead!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Elsie]

INDEED!

Now we’re TALKIN’!!

[daniel1212]

Speaking of what manner of spirit we are of, how much credence is there to the story of Smith beating on someone(s) who reproved him?

And how many Army deaths were they responsible for in the Utah War. The WP pages on Mormonism seems to be mostly by LDS editors.

[Elsie]

Speaking of what manner of spirit we are of, how much credence is there to the story of Smith beating on someone(s) who reproved him?

Which 'Smith'?

I have a factual story about the MRS Smith - the LEGAL one...

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 132

51–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to ^aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, ^areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been ^afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and ^acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be ^bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ^ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of ^beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid ^aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to ^brejoice.

 

 

---

Whatever HAPPENED to Emma???

---

 

Eliza was a devout Mormon.

 

At age 38, she became Joseph Smith's 14th plural wife (in addition to Smith's lawful wife, Emma).

 

In 1842, after learning Eliza was pregnant, Emma Smith beat Eliza with a broomstick and

knocked her down a flight of stairs, causing Eliza to miscarry Smith's baby.

Wow!!

 

I guess ol' Emma got VAPORIZED by GOD!!!

 

We know that multiply him thing sure didn't work out!          

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

[daniel1212]

That is not what i was referring to, but i that is a new one to me. I was referring to her polygamist spouse.

Just like the apostles (sar):

Benjamin F. Johnson recalled how Joseph Smith sometimes lost his temper and resorted to physical violence:

And yet, although so social and even convival [sic] at times, he would allow no arrogance or undue liberties. Criticisms, even by his associates, were rarely acceptable. Contradictions would arouse in him the lion at once. By no one of his fellows would he be superceded. In the early days at Kirtland, and elsewhere, one or another of his associates were more than once, for their impudence, helped from the congregation by his foot.... He soundly thrashed his brother William...

Calvin Stoddard once testified that “Smith then came up and knocked him in the forehead with his flat hand—the blow knocked him down, when Smith repeated the blow four or five times, very hard—made him blind—that Smith afterwards came to him and asked his forgiveness...” (Conflict at Kirtland, p. 132)...

Brigham Young once made this evaluation of Joseph Smith: “Some may think that I am rather too severe; but if you had the Prophet Joseph to deal with, you would think that I am quite mild.... He would not bear the usage I have borne, and would appear as though he would tear down all the houses in the city, and tear up trees by the roots, if men conducted to him in the way they have to me” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, pp. 317-18). - http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech17.htm

So much for not waging war after the flesh. (2Cor. 10:3)

[boatbums]

I think it is noteworthy that NONE of the writers God used to pen the New Testament ever make mention of praying to "saints" for their intercession. Stephen was one of the first martyrs for Christ and Acts 7 speaks about his stoning for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet, no mention is made of believers encouraged to ask Stephen for his intercession with Christ even though they all believed he was with Jesus. Acts 7:55-56 says, "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” and then in verses 59-60 we read, "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep."

Mary WAS blessed among women and she is a model for all believers of faith in the midst of adversity, but she did not die as a martyr for Christ. In Hebrews 11 we are given what are called profiles of faith and courage, those who are commended for their faith and who endured unimaginable torment and suffering for righteousness sake. Yet we are not taught in Scripture to pray TO them in hopes that they might have Jesus' "ear" and may be more successful in granting our requests than going directly to Christ would. Having fellow Christians, who are in our lives right now, pray with us, joining with us in prayer, is how God intends for us to intercede with and for each other - it gives us a tangible part in each others' lives and ministry and we see God's hand as he deals with us and He is glorified. That really IS what prayer is for - communicating with God as an individual and knowing that we DO "have His ear" because we are His children by faith. As Jesus said in Matthew 7:11, "If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"

[Elsie]

(From your source...)

Mrs. Mary Ettie V. Smith reports in her book Mormonism: Its Rise, Progress, And Present Condition: "It appears the Prophet Joseph had one day broken the leg of my brother Howard, while wrestling ... by an unlucky pass, Howard fell with a broken leg. It was immediately set by the 'Prophet,' ... Howard to this day claims he experienced no pain of any amount, and believes yet that Joseph healed it" (p. 52).

Take THAT, Mary!!!

[Elsie]

2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,

[Elsie]

[Cronos]

[Cronos]

[Elsie]

[Syncro]

Amen to the Bible never saying to pray to saints.

If it did, I imagine it would point to Stephen as first choice.

He died a horrible death while speaking of Jesus, while Mary died peacefully and was put in a tomb.

Praying to Mary is just a way to get people to look at a domination seeped in the traditions of men which takes their eyes off of Jesus.

It's not about a particular denomination (like the Founders recognized in the Constitution) it's about a personal relationship with Jesus.