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To: Syncro
Now I imagine it will be argued, Oh yes, it's through Mary, she points to Jesus. That is not real clear from Popes IMO.

In fairness they do say this, but the problem is that of attributing to Mary degrees of powers, position and glory which are not shown given to any moral, or even angels, with more titles then are even given to the Lord Himself, and which overall do not have Scriptural warrant.

Believers are not even crowned till He returns, and not one believer prayed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, let alone having almost unlimited power, and not lacking power to save us due to prayers which are almost like commands, and thru whom all graces flow, and that no one has access to Jesus Christ but through Mary.

Yet Mary is quite marginal in the gospels, which is about the only place she appears, and it is the nature of Divine revelation to manifest extraordinary aspects of its characters, and all the supererogation of praise to Mary, beyond what the Holy Spirit provided, is effectively charging Him with neglect, though that is justified under the concept of Tradition, but which almost makes it a virtual bottomless pit (and no one can tells us where it ends).

Thus Catholics are engaging is what Paul warned about, thinking of souls "above that which is written," (1 Corinthians 4:6) "written" almost always meaning Scripture.

The Holy Spirit records far more from Paul and about Paul, showing his love for the church and for the lost and his great suffering for Christ, than is revealed about Mary, and with Paul being the vessel who brought forth the word of the Lord to the church far more than any other.

But we can imagine the howl from Catholics if we ever claimed such things for Paul as that which they extrapolate for Mary, and vainly attempt to justify.

2,965 posted on 01/27/2013 7:01:27 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
Thanks for your reply, daniel.

...the problem is that of attributing to Mary degrees of powers, position and glory which are not shown given to any moral, or even angels, with more titles then are even given to the Lord Himself, and which overall do not have Scriptural warrant.
Which tends to get naive people with out a good grounding in scripture to look to Mary instead of Jesus.

... power to save us due to prayers which are almost like commands, and thru whom all graces flow, and that no one has access to Jesus Christ but through Mary.
Which of course comes from twisting scriptures to fit the RCC convoluted viewpoint concerning Mary so as to seeming exalt her higher than Jesus.

Again, those not grounded in scripture, but rather more holding to dogmatic "traditions" will ascribe to Mary that which is not scriptural.

... all the supererogation of praise to Mary, beyond what the Holy Spirit provided, is effectively charging Him with neglect, though that is justified under the concept of Tradition, but which almost makes it a virtual bottomless pit (and no one can tells us where it ends).
Amen


2,966 posted on 01/27/2013 9:35:21 AM PST by Syncro ("So?" - Andrew Breitbart The King of All Media (RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: daniel1212
I think it is noteworthy that NONE of the writers God used to pen the New Testament ever make mention of praying to "saints" for their intercession. Stephen was one of the first martyrs for Christ and Acts 7 speaks about his stoning for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet, no mention is made of believers encouraged to ask Stephen for his intercession with Christ even though they all believed he was with Jesus. Acts 7:55-56 says, "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” and then in verses 59-60 we read, "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep."

Mary WAS blessed among women and she is a model for all believers of faith in the midst of adversity, but she did not die as a martyr for Christ. In Hebrews 11 we are given what are called profiles of faith and courage, those who are commended for their faith and who endured unimaginable torment and suffering for righteousness sake. Yet we are not taught in Scripture to pray TO them in hopes that they might have Jesus' "ear" and may be more successful in granting our requests than going directly to Christ would. Having fellow Christians, who are in our lives right now, pray with us, joining with us in prayer, is how God intends for us to intercede with and for each other - it gives us a tangible part in each others' lives and ministry and we see God's hand as he deals with us and He is glorified. That really IS what prayer is for - communicating with God as an individual and knowing that we DO "have His ear" because we are His children by faith. As Jesus said in Matthew 7:11, "If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"

2,972 posted on 01/27/2013 11:11:10 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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