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Rome's New and Novel Concept of Tradition Living Tradition (Viva Voce - Whatever We Say)
Monergism.com ^ | 12/17/2012 | William Webster

Posted on 12/17/2012 1:19:04 PM PST by RnMomof7

In the history of Roman Catholic dogma, one can trace an evolution in the theory of tradition. There were two fundamental patristic principles which governed the early Church's approach to dogma. The first was sola Scriptura in which the fathers viewed Scripture as both materially and formally sufficient. It was materially sufficient in that it was the only source of doctrine and truth and the ultimate authority in all doctrinal controversies. It was necessary that every teaching of the Church as it related to doctrine be proven from Scripture. Thomas Aquinas articulated this patristic view when he stated that canonical Scripture alone is the rule of faith (sola canonica scriptura est regula fidei). (1) Additionally, they taught that the essential truths of Scripture were perspicuous, that is, that they were clearly revealed in Scripture, so that, by the enablement of the Holy Spirit alone an individual could come to an understanding of the fundamental truths of salvation.

The second is a principle enunciated by the Roman Catholic Councils of Trent (1546-1562) and Vatican I (1870) embodied in the phrase 'the unanimous consent of the fathers.' This is a principle that purportedly looks to the past for validation of its present teachings particularly as they relate to the interpretation of Scripture. Trent initially promulgated this principle as a means of countering the Reformation teachings to make it appear that the Reformers' doctrines were novel and heretical while those of Rome were rooted in historical continuity. It is significant to note that Trent merely affirmed the existence of the principle without providing documentary proof for its validity. Vatican I merely reaffirmed the principle as decreed by Trent. Its historical roots hearken back to Vincent of Lerins in the fifth century who was the first to give it formal definition when he stated that apostolic and catholic doctrine could be identified by a three fold criteria: It was a teaching that had been believed everywhere, always and by all (quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus creditum est). (2) In other words, the principle of unanimous agreement encompassing universality (believed everywhere), antiquity (believed always) and consent (believed by all). Vincent readily agreed with the principle of sola Scriptura, that is, that Scripture was sufficient as the source of truth. But he was concerned about how one determined what was truly apostolic and catholic doctrine. This was the official position of the Church immediately subsequent to Vincent throughout the Middle Ages and for centuries immediately following Trent. But this principle, while fully embraced by Trent and Vatican I, has all been but abandoned by Rome today in a practical and formal sense. This is due to the fact that so much of Rome's teachings, upon historical examination, fail the test of unanimous consent. Some Roman Catholic historians are refreshingly honest in this assessment. Patrologist Boniface Ramsey, for example, candidly admits that the current Roman Catholic teachings on Mary and the papacy were not taught in the early Church:

Sometimes, then, the Fathers speak and write in a way that would eventually be seen as unorthodox. But this is not the only difficulty with respect to the criterion of orthodoxy. The other great one is that we look in vain in many of the Fathers for references to things that many Christians might believe in today. We do not find, for instance, some teachings on Mary or the papacy that were developed in medieval and modern times.(3)

At first, this clear lack of patristic consensus led Rome to embrace a new theory in the late nineteenth century to explain its teachings—the theory initiated by John Henry Newman known as the development of doctrine. In light of the historical reality, Newman had come to the conclusion that the Vincentian principle of unanimous consent was unworkable, because, for all practical purposes, it was nonexistent. To quote Newman:

It does not seem possible, then, to avoid the conclusion that, whatever be the proper key for harmonizing the records and documents of the early and later Church, and true as the dictum of Vincentius must be considered in the abstract, and possible as its application might be in his own age, when he might almost ask the primitive centuries for their testimony, it is hardly available now, or effective of any satisfactory result. The solution it offers is as difficult as the original problem.(4)

The obvious problem with Newman's analysis and conclusion is that it flies in the face of the decrees of Trent and Vatican I, both of which decreed that the unanimous consent of the fathers does exist. But to circumvent the lack of patristic witness for the distinctive Roman Catholic dogmas, Newman set forth his theory of development, which was embraced by the Roman Catholic Church. Ironically, this is a theory which, like unanimous consent, has its roots in the teaching of Vincent of Lerins, who also promulgated a concept of development. While rejecting Vincent's rule of universality, antiquity and consent, Rome, through Newman, once again turned to Vincent for validation of its new theory of tradition and history. But while Rome and Vincent both use the term development, they are miles apart in their understanding of the meaning of the principle because Rome's definition of development and Vincent's are diametrically opposed to one another. In his teaching, Vincent delineates the following parameters for true development of doctrine:

But some one will say. perhaps, Shall there, then, be no progress in Christ's Church? Certainly; all possible progress. For what being is there, so envious of men, so full of hatred to God, who would seek to forbid it? Yet on condition that it be real progress, not alteration of the faith. For progress requires that the subject be enlarged n itself, alteration, that it be transformed into something else. The intelligence, then, the knowledge, the wisdom, as well of individuals as of all, as well of one man as of the whole Church, ought, in the course of ages and centuries, to increase and make much and vigorous progress; but yet only in its own kind; that is to say, in the same doctrine, in the same sense, and in the same meaning.(5)

First of all, Vincent is saying that doctrinal development must be rooted in the principle of unanimous consent. That is, it must be related to doctrines that have been clearly taught throughout the ages of the Church. In other words, true development must demonstrate historical roots. Any teaching which could not demonstrate its authority from Scripture and the universal teaching of the Church was to be repudiated as novel and therefore not truly catholic. It was to be considered heretical. This is the whole point of Vincent's criticism of such heretics as Coelestius and Pelagius. He says, 'Who ever before his (Pelagius) monstrous disciple Coelestius ever denied that the whole human race is involved in the guilt of Adam's sin?'(6) Their teaching, which was a denial of original sin, was novel. It could not demonstrate historical continuity and therefore it was heretical.

But, with Newman, Rome redefined the theory of development and promoted a new concept of tradition. One that was truly novel. Truly novel in the sense that it was completely foreign to the perspective of Vincent and the theologians of Trent and Vatican I who speak of the unanimous consent of the fathers. These two Councils claim that there is a clear continuity between their teaching and the history of the ancient Church which preceded them (whether this is actually true is another thing altogether). A continuity which can they claimed could be documented by the explicit teaching of the Church fathers in their interpretation of Scripture and in their practice. Vatican I, for example, teaches that the papacy was full blown from the very beginning and was, therefore, not subject to development over time.
In this new theory Rome moved beyond the historical principle of development as articulated by Vincent and, for all practical purposes, eliminated any need for historical validation. She now claimed that it was not necessary that a particular doctrine be taught explicitly by the early Church. In fact, Roman Catholic historians readily admit that doctrines such as the assumption of Mary and papal infallibility were completely unknown in the teaching of the early Church. If Rome now teaches the doctrine we are told that the early Church actually believed and taught it implicitly and only later, after many centuries, did it become explicit.

From this principle it was only a small step in the evolution of Rome's teaching on Tradition to her present position. Rome today has replaced the concept of tradition as development to what is known as 'living tradition.' This is a concept that promotes the Church as an infallible authority, which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who protects her from error. Therefore, whatever Rome's magisterium teaches at any point in time must be true even if it lacks historical or biblical support. The following statement by Roman Catholic apologist Karl Keating regarding the teaching of the Assumption of Mary is an illustration of this very point. He says it does not matter that there is no teaching on the Assumption in Scripture, the mere fact that the Roman Church teaches it is proof that it is true. Thus, teachings do not need to be documented from Scripture:

Still, fundamentalists ask, where is the proof from Scripture? Strictly, there is none. It was the Catholic Church that was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly. The mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true.(7)

This assertion is a complete repudiation of the patristic principle of proving every doctrine by the criterion of Scripture. Tradition means handing down from the past. Rome has changed the meaning of tradition from demonstrating by patristic consent that a doctrine is truly part of tradition, to the concept of living tradition—whatever I say today is truth, irrespective of the witness of history. This goes back to the claims of Gnosticism to having received the tradition by living voice, viva voce. Only now Rome has reinterpreted viva voce, the living voice as receiving from the past by way of oral tradition, to be a creative and therefore entirely novel aspect of tradition. It creates tradition in its present teaching without appeal to the past. To paraphrase the Gnostic line, it is viva voce-whatever we say. Another illustration of this reality relates to the teaching of the Assumption of Mary from the French Roman Catholic historian, Joussard:

In these conditions we shall not ask patristic thought-as some theologians still do today under one form or another-to transmit to us, with respect to the Assumption, a truth received as such in the beginning and faithfully communicated to subsequent ages. Such an attitude would not fit the facts...Patristic thought has not, in this instance, played the role of a sheer instrument of transmission.(8)

The editors of the book which references these statements from Joussard offer the following editorial comments:

A word of caution is not impertinent here. The investigation of patristic documents might well lead the historian to the conclusion: In the first seven or eight centuries no trustworthy historical tradition on Mary's corporeal Assumption is extant, especially in the West. The conclusion is legitimate; if the historian stops there, few theological nerves will be touched. The historian's mistake would come in adding: therefore no proof from tradition can be adduced. The historical method is not the theological method, nor is historical tradition synonymous with dogmatic tradition.(9)

The historical method is not the theological method, nor is historical tradition synonymous with dogmatic tradition? Such a view is the complete antithesis of the teaching of Vincent of Lerins and the Councils of Trent and Vatican I. This is an apt illustration of the concept of living tradition. This new perspective on tradition is also well expressed by Roman Catholic theologian and cardinal, Yves Congar. In light of the lack of historical support for a number of the Roman Catholic dogmas, Congar sets forth this new approach of living tradition:

In every age the consensus of the faithful, still more the agreement of those who are commissioned to teach them, has been regarded as a guarantee of truth: not because of some mystique of universal suffrage, but because of the Gospel principle that unanimity and fellowship in Christian matters requires, and also indicates, the intervention of the Holy Spirit. From the time when the patristic argument first began to be used in dogmatic controversies-it first appeared in the second century and gained general currency in the fourth-theologians have tried to establish agreement among qualified witnesses of the faith, and have tried to prove from this agreement that such was in fact the Church's belief…Unanimous patristic consent as a reliable locus theologicus is classical in Catholic theology; it has often been declared such by the magisterium and its value in scriptural interpretation has been especially stressed. Application of the principle is difficult, at least at a certain level. In regard to individual texts of Scripture total patristic consensus is rare. In fact, a complete consensus is unnecessary: quite often, that which is appealed to as sufficient for dogmatic points does not go beyond what is encountered in the interpretation of many texts. But it does sometimes happen that some Fathers understood a passage in a way which does not agree with later Church teaching. One example: the interpretation of Peter's confession in Matthew 16.16-18. Except at Rome, this passage was not applied by the Fathers to the papal primacy; they worked out an exegesis at the level of their own ecclesiological thought, more anthropological and spiritual than juridical. This instance, selected from a number of similar ones, shows first that the Fathers cannot be isolated from the Church and its life. They are great, but the Church surpasses them in age, as also by the breadth and richness of its experience. It is the Church, not the Fathers, the consensus of the Church in submission to its Saviour which is the sufficient rule of our Christianity.(10)

Congar affirms that unanimous consent is the classical position in Roman theology. But he honestly admits that for all practical purposes it is nonexistent. It is a claim that has been asserted for centuries but lacking in actual documentary validation. As Congar says: 'In regard to individual texts of Scripture total patristic consensus is rare.' And he uses the fundamental passage for all of Rome's authority as an example, that being the rock passage of Matthew 16 in which he candidly admits that the present day Roman/papal interpretation of that passage contradicts that of the patristic age. But, according to Congar, the problem is really not a problem because it can be circumvented by a different understanding of consensus. The Fathers must be interpreted in light of present day teaching. Congar says: 'The Fathers cannot be isolated from the Church and its life.' And by the Church and its life, he means the Church as it is today. He says: 'It is the Church, not the Fathers, the consensus of the Church in submission to its Saviour which is the sufficient rule of our Christianity.' In other words, what matters is what the Church teaches now. That is the criterion of truth and Tradition because the Church is living and Tradition is living. He continues:

This instance shows too that we may not, at the doctrinal as distinct from the purely historical level, take the witnesses of Tradition in a purely material sense: they are to be weighed and valued. The plain material fact of agreement or disagreement, however extensive, does not allow us to speak of a consensus Patrum at the properly dogmatic level, for the authors studied in theology are only "Fathers" in the theological sense if they have in some way begotten the Church which follows them. Now, it may be, that the seed which will be most fruitful in the future is not the most clearly so at present, and that the lifelines of faith may not pass through the great doctors in a given instance. Historical documentation is at the factual level; it must leave room or a judgment made not in the light of the documentary evidence alone, but of the Church's faith.(11)

Note carefully the last two sentences of that paragraph. Congar postulates that in the future the Church could be teaching doctrines which are completely unheard of today and which will therefore not be able to be documented historically. As he puts it: 'The lifelines of faith may not pass through the great doctors in a given instance.' Historical documentation must leave room for judgment that is not restricted to documentary evidence alone but transcends the historical record in light of the present day Church's faith. In other words, the truth of ecclesiastical history must be viewed through the lens of whatever the faith of the Church is at the present moment.

This in effect cuts the Church off from any kind of continuity as far as real documentation is concerned or accountability. It allows the Church to conveniently disregard the witness of history and Scripture in favor of a dynamic evolving teaching authority. History in effect becomes irrelevant and all talk of the unanimous consent of the fathers merely a relic of history. This brings us to the place where one's faith is placed blindly in the institution of the Church. Again, in reality Rome has abandoned the argument from history is arguing for the viva voce (living voice) of the contemporary teaching office of the Church (magisterium), which amounts to the essence of a carte blanche for whatever proves to be the current, prevailing sentiments of Rome. Never was this more blatantly admitted and expressed than it was by the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster, Henry Edward Manning (1808-1892) who was one of the leading proponents for the definition of papal rule and infallibility at Vatican I. His words are the expression of sola ecclesia with a vengeance:

But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine. How can we know what antiquity was except through the Church?…I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness. . . . The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour (emphasis mine). (12)

So, in effect, the new teaching of tradition in Rome is no longer that of continuity with the past but living tradition, or viva voce - whatever we say. Instead of sola Scriptura, the unanimous principle of authority enunciated by both Scripture and the Church fathers, we now have sola Ecclesia, blind submission to an institution which is unaccountable to either Scripture or history. That blind submission is not too strong an allegation is seen from the official Roman teaching on saving faith. What Rome requires is what is technically referred to a dogmatic faith. This is faith which submits completely to whatever the Church of Rome officially defines as dogma and to refuse such submission results in anathema and the loss of salvation, for unless a Roman Catholic has dogmatic faith, he or she does not have saving faith. Rome's view is based on the presupposition that the Church is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is therefore infallible. She cannot err. But the presupposition is faulty. Historically, the Roman Church has clearly proven that she can and has erred and is therefore quite fallible. Her gospel is a repudiation of the biblical gospel.

This is where we ultimately arrive when the patristic and Reformation principle of sola Scriptura is repudiated for the concept of living tradition and an infallible magisterium—the embracing of teachings which are not only not found in Scripture or the teaching of the early Church, but which are actually contradictory to Scripture and in many cases to the teaching of the Church fathers.

(1) It should be noted that though many might write concerning Catholic truth, there is this difference that those who wrote the canonical Scripture, the Evangelists and Apostles, and others of this kind, so constantly assert it that they leave no room for doubt. That is his meaning when he says 'we know his testimony is true.' Galatians 1:9, "If anyone preach a gospel to you other than that which you have received, let him be anathema!" The reason is that only canonical Scripture is a measure of faith. Others however so wrote of the truth that they should not be believed save insofar as they say true things." Thomas's commentary on John's Gospel, Super Evangelium S. Ioannis Lectura, ed. P. Raphaelis Cai, O.P., Editio V revisa (Romae: Marietti E ditori Ltd., 1952) n. 2656, p. 488. Latin Text: Notandum autem, quod cum multi scriberent de catholica veritate, haec est differentia, quia illi, qui scripserunt canonicam Scripturam, sicut Evangelistic et Apostoli, et alii huiusmodi, ita constanter eam asserunt quod nihil dubitandum relinquunt. Et ideo dicit Et scimus quia verum est testimonium eius; Gal. I, 9: Si quis vobis evangelizaverit praeter id quod accepistis, anathema sit. Cuius ratio est, quia sola canonica scriptura est regula fidei. Alii autem sic edisserunt de veritate, quod nolunt sibi credi nisi in his quae ver dicunt.

(2) Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicece and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1955), Series II, Volume XI, Vincent of Lerins, A Commonitory 2.4-6.

(3) Boniface Ramsey, Beginning to Read the Fathers (London: Darton, Longman & Todd, 1986), p. 6.

(4) John Henry Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (New York: Longmans, Green and Co., reprinted 1927), p. 27. (5) Nicece and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1955), Series II, Volume XI, Vincent of Lerins, A Commonitory 23.54.

(6) Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1955), Volume XI, Vincent of Lerins, A Commonitory, Chapter XXIV.62.

(7) Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988), p. 275.

(8) Joussard, L'Assomption coropelle, pp. 115-116. Cited by Juniper B. Carol, O.F.M., ed., Mariology, Vol. I (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1955), p. 154. Juniper B. Carol, O.F.M., ed., Mariology, Vol. I (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1955), p. 154.

(9) Juniper B. Carol, O.F.M., ed., Mariology, Vol. I (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1955), p. 154.

(10) Yves Congar, Tradition and Traditions (New York: Macmillan Company, 1966), pp. 397-400.

(11) Yves Congar, Tradition and Traditions (New York: Macmillan Company, 1966), pp. 397-400.

(12) Henry Edward Manning, The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation (New York: J.P. Kenedy & Sons, originally written 1865, reprinted with no date), pp. 227-228.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholism; congar; doctrine; newman; reformation; theology; tradition
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To: smvoice
The Book of Acts is a transition book. From Kingdom a believers to a Body of Believers. From Law to Grace. From the 12 Apostles dealing with Israel to one Apostle dealing with the one new man, where there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. No one “Laid down his pen”, and the story does not just “abruptly end”. The dispensation of the law was set aside and the dispensation of the grace of God was taken up. Acts is about the fall and temporary blindness of Israel. And the times of the Gentiles. Just like Hebrews is a transition Book, where God is once again dealing with Israel as a nation and the middle wall of partition that separated Jews and Gentiles is back up.

It was noted by a Theology professor I studied under that actually Acts is actually the first NT book..the gospels all reflect the the OT law,which Christ fulfilled and that was eliminated at the cross when the new covenant was made ...

Thats why so many get confused, and think that law keeping is a means of salvation today ..

221 posted on 12/18/2012 6:21:33 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: JustSayNoToNannies
Is not 57 between 56 and 58? Funny I was taught they are... BTW Peter was also an elder which also means presbyter , bishop,overseer.... and anyone that understands the early church KNOWS that the elders were the authority of the church and exercised church discipline ..THAT WAS THE ROLE OF THE OVERSEER

So saying that this letter shows the beginning of authority is only saying something one sees in scripture..and one does not see any pope in the NT church

222 posted on 12/18/2012 6:28:14 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

That is also what I believe. According to Hebrews 9:16,17 there is no testament without the death of the testator. Which means that Mathew, Mark, Luke and John are all part of the OT. For the most part. Until His death.


223 posted on 12/18/2012 6:29:35 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: RobbyS

RobbyS:

I have stated this for over 5 years, many, and I mean many, of the FR Prots here are full blown Nestorians and you can try to tell them but their blind hatred for the Catholic Church blinds them. They don’t even realize the implications of the Nestorian position leads to either subordination of CHrist or some form of adoptionism, either of which distorts the Divinity of Christ and Him being consubstantial [homousia] with the Father.

I am afraid many of the Reformed Prots here are getting similar to many of the pentecostal movements, who many now are OneNess which is recycled Modalism, of course, which was condemned by the early 3rd century Bishops of Rome. The similarity with thise FR Prots, most of which seem to me to be fundalmentalist Bible alone Baptist, Reformed or evangelicals is that there embracing of Nestorianism is an explicit Christological heresy, Modalism being not only Christological but also a Trinitarian heresy.

You and I want be here to see it, but all of Protestantism will eventually colllapse with its “militant Bible alone and Me alone” principles.


224 posted on 12/18/2012 6:52:27 PM PST by CTrent1564
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To: smvoice

Exactly


225 posted on 12/18/2012 7:08:43 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession.

And it is OBVIOUS from the reading of it!

To state anything else is to twist the meaning of the words.

226 posted on 12/18/2012 7:14:07 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: CTrent1564

And most catholics seem to believe that jesus had to have a goddess mother to be both God and man in His mothers womb..fully denying the humanity of Christ.....


227 posted on 12/18/2012 7:14:53 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: johnd201
Let me repeat there was no Bible until 476 B.C.

That early; eh? ;^)

228 posted on 12/18/2012 7:15:14 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: CynicalBear

This data is found in the penumbra of the early fathers writings...


229 posted on 12/18/2012 7:18:13 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: RobbyS
...and fail to consider the character of the woman who gave birth to Our Lord.

We also fail to consider the character of the woman who is mentioned in the lineage of the Lord:

Matthew 1:5
...Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab ...

230 posted on 12/18/2012 7:20:49 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: RobbyS

We are NOT allowed to fill in the blanks of the ‘story’ with what we wish; are we?


231 posted on 12/18/2012 7:24:31 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: johnd201; CynicalBear
Let me repeat there was no Bible until 476 B.C. There are however, records of Peter having been in Rome and that Mark was Peter’s secretary. If he hadn’t been, the Gospel of Mark would have never appeared in the Gospels.

Link us to those "records"

There was scripture from the earliest church..Peter recognized Pauls writings as scripture

Justin Martyr had all the gospels and some epistles,Irenaeus quoted from most of the books,Turtullian too quoted from most of the books and actually Origen named all the books of the NT

In the early church different areas had different canons.. There was NO CLOSED CANON until Trent..

232 posted on 12/18/2012 7:24:44 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: boatbums
...the primacy of Peter over the whole Church.

Golly!

just HOW did I miss this when studying the bible?

233 posted on 12/18/2012 7:26:43 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: RobbyS
The Reformation began as a repudiation of Roman authority,

Strange; I've always read that it was over papal excesses and blatently unscriptural practices.

I guess I find out next that the COUNTER reformation never took place.

234 posted on 12/18/2012 7:28:57 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: RobbyS
Your mind set seems Nestorian: Mary as the mother of Jesus, but not of the Christ, as the human and divine natures in the Christ could be separated.

While...

Your mind set seems ROMAN: Mary as the mother of Jesus; with her humanness infused with a divine nature.

235 posted on 12/18/2012 7:30:52 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: RobbyS
Peter was the chief of the Apostles, and the popes of Rome are his successors.

He WAS??

236 posted on 12/18/2012 7:31:43 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: CTrent1564
You and I want (won't?) be here to see it, but all of Protestantism will eventually colllapse with its “militant Bible alone and Me alone” principles.

We seem to have a prophet in our midst!

237 posted on 12/18/2012 7:34:05 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums

boatbums:

There was a primacy of the Church of Rome, and thus by extension its Bishop. The fact that there was not a single Bishop in Rome, does not disprove the Primacy of Church of Rome. The earliest lists of Bishops of Rome can be found in St. Ireaneaus of Lyons, Against Heresies, written circa 175-180AD. However, a careful reading of his works clearly states the necessity of all the Churches being in agreement with the Church of Rome because of its premminent authority and Ireaneaus cites both Peter and Paul as the bedrocks of Rome’s authority.

So the Primacy of the Church of Rome, and thus by extension is Bishops is rooted in the primacy of St. Peter among the Apostles. That does not change because we can’t document exactly when there was only a Single Bishop in Rome. Having several Bishops in a city is still in place even today, and back in that period, given the likelihood of Roman persecution, having several Bishops in a city like Rome is practical on several levels 1)It was a large city and those several Bishops could help shepard the flock and 2) Given the probability that the Roman authorities were always looking to execute the leaders of the Church, having capable men in place to succeed those who were killed ensured and orderly transfer of leadership.

So Lampe’s claim of no monarchial Bishop does not refute the Primacy of the Church of Rome. It was attested to by the Fathers in the late 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries. The Council of Nicea, in 325AD in Canon 6 only affirms a Primacy of Rome that the canon acknowledges is already in place and then says let us also give a primacy to the Church of Alexandria and Antioch in its region, similar to what Rome has had.

So like all things, the Bishop of Rome [Papacy] clearly developed more into what it is today starting in the 4th century, but even before the Council of Nicea. As Prof. Owen Chadwick notes in his work the Early Church, revised edition, 1993 (p.237: The role of the Roman communith as natural leader goes back to an early stage of the History of the Church. It can be clearly seen in their brotherly intervention in the dispute at Corinth before the end of the 1st century [a reference to St. Clements letter]. The standing of the Church of Rome was enhanced by its important part in the 2nd century conflicts with heresy and by its consciousness, expressed as early as 160AD in the monuments erected to the memory of St. Peter and St. Paul.

Some examples of what Prof. Chadwick is referring to would include the Church of Rome’s “excommunication” {unilaterally} of the Marcion in 144AD, Marcion being a Deacon from Asia Minor who came to Rome and began working there but his preaching was Gnostic in theology and he wanted to throw out the OT and argue for only certain books be read in the Church [he was instrumental in the formation of the NT and OT canon]. Ireneaus also records the Church of Rome’s role with dealing with the Gnostics.

In J. Pelikan’s “The Spirit of Eastern CHristendom: 600-1700 Volume 2, he devotes Chapter 4 of that book to “The challenges of Latin Church”. He makes several interesting points. For example, restating what he covered in Volume 1 of his work, he cited Pope Leo I at the Council of Chalcedon noting tha the East had to admit that Leo was hailed as the pillar of orthodoxy. All of the Bishops at the Council of Chalcedon, most from the East had stated “Peter had spoken thru Leo”. Pelikan continues stating that Rome had been the pillar of orthodoxy in the 7th century controversies, just as it had been in the 5th.

Now, what was the foundation of Rome’s orthodoxy. Pelikan, on page 157 states that the explanation for Old Rome as the foundation of orthodoxy was not difficult to find...it lay in the promise and commission to Peter and thru him his successors. The foundation of that orthodoxy was Peter being identified by Christ as the rock and as Pelikan continues, to be built on the rock, the Church must show that it stood in succession with Peter and that it was an heir of the promises given to him. It was agreed on all sides, moreover, that this succession pertained to the Church as an Institution. So, Pelikans work [written as a Lutheran] and Chadwicks work both acknowledge that the Church of Rome enjoyed a Primacy and was the bedrock of orthodoxy.


238 posted on 12/18/2012 7:40:15 PM PST by CTrent1564
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To: Elsie

Elsie:

No not a prophet, just a prediction based on the evidence that I see and I can see what is going on, it [Protestantism] at the various confessional levels continues to fragment, and fragment and much of what folks here are suggesting is pure Christological heresy, as I noted earlier, most of you here defacto Nestorians and don’t even seem to realize it. The Pentecostal movement is getting more and more Oneness and it seems the Evangelical and Baptist and even some of the Reformed types here are Nestorians, as I said before.


239 posted on 12/18/2012 7:43:58 PM PST by CTrent1564
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To: Elsie

Elsie:

ahhh, good catch, won’t is the word.


240 posted on 12/18/2012 7:45:26 PM PST by CTrent1564
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