Who is the Harlot AND Her Daughters?

12/3/2012 | self

[DouglasKC]

Question: In the passages below a harlot symbolizes something. The title on her head is "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." One of the titles is "the mother of harlots". This suggests that there are other harlots that have sprung from this harlot.

This is more curiosity then anything else...but what are opinions on what this represents?

Rev 17:1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
Rev 17:2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.
Rev 17:5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.
Rev 17:7 But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:9 "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
Rev 17:10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.
Rev 17:11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.
Rev 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.
Rev 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."

[xzins]

Hardly weak at all. It’s a point made in numerous books/articles.

[Yosemitest]

Look, I'm tired and need some sleep.
So forgive me if I get "short" and "blunt".
This is meat, not milk.
When the Bible speaks of a "Harlot", it is referring to a the character that is feminine, and I refer you to Ephesians 5:27-33, especially verse 32.
Hence the "Harlot" is a church.
It's a church that directs the actions of Nation/States, governments.
The Beast the "Harlot" rides is defined in Daniel 7, so pay attention to verse 17.
The only church I know that directs the actions of most of the nation/states on earth is the Roman Catholic Church.
And how many other churches have come out of her?
Hence she is THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

[Yosemitest]

You might enjoy these links.

EUROPE and AMERICA in Prophecy

The United States and Britain in Prophecy

[Boogieman]

“Hardly weak at all. It’s a point made in numerous books/articles.”

The prevalence of an argument is immaterial to its validity.

[xzins]

The prevalence of an argument is immaterial to its validity.

Wrong. The prevalence of an argument suggests that it has commendable qualities. And, since we're talking theology, those really have nothing to do with avenues to power, wealth, etc.

So, one can argue:

Proverbs 11: 14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.

[sasportas]

On the whore Babylon and her daughters, much depends on how we interpret the Revelation. Historicist and Futurist are the main views today. The reformers were historicists, so mainline Protestanism. The following is typical of their view:

The Paganization of the Church”

Christ had designed to conquer by purely spiritual and moral means. Up to this time (the fourth century) conversion was voluntary, a genuine change in heart and life. But now the spirit of imperial Rome had entered the Church.

The Church had conquered the Roman Empire. But in reality the Roman Empire had conquered the Church, by making the Church over into the image of the Roman Empire.

The Church had changed its nature, had entered its great apostasy, had become a political organization in the spirit and pattern of Imperial Rome.

The Imperial Church of the 4th and 5th centuries had become an entirely different institution from the Church of the first three centuries.

In its ambition to rule it lost and forgot the spirit of Christ. Worship, at first very simple, was developed into elaborate, stately, ceremonies having all the outward splendor that had belonged to pagan temples. It began a process of amalgamation with Greek and Oriental Philosophies.

It is no wonder, then, the Reformers saw the RCC as paganized Christianity, as Babylon the whore of Revelation. I agree 100% with the assessment in italics above. The apologists for Rome here on FR will not, of course, but those who know their church history understand perfectly well why the Reformers interpreted the whore Babylon as they did.

I, however, am a Futurist, I believe the Revelation, including the whore Babylon, should be interpreted in accordance with the endtime tribulation scenario it presents. The Imperial Roman Church of the middle ages is no more, once the Bible was let loose (thank God, for Tyndale and others like him), it has been defanged. Though you would never get this impression here on FR, no honest student of the Bible believes the RCC is the Apostolic church we see in the Bible.

My opinion, as far as historical Christianity is concerned, yes, the paganized RCC is definitely a whore, she’s the whore Church of Christianity hands down. But the scope of Revelation is larger than just Christianity, it has to deal with all forms of paganized religion manifested in the endtime: Jewish Kabbalism, Islam, Hinduism and the Eastern Religions, Freemasonry and the secret societies, New Ageism, modern forms of Gnosticism, witchcraft and all forms of occultism, and the list keeps going.

In short, while the RCC is certainly part of it, the Christian part of it, by no means does it constitute the totality of the abominable religious conglomeration we have today in our world, depicted as Babylon in the Revelation.

Moreover, the descriptions the Revelation gives can hardly exclusively fit the RCC. Rev. 18, the commercial side of her, for example. Does the RCC control all finance? I’m sure the Pope would like to, but he doesn’t.

Only Historicists continues to see the whore of Babylon as exclusively the RCC. I once saw it that way, but a simple look around us today doesn’t match the facts. Which is why I am now a full blown Futurist.

[Boogieman]

“Wrong. The prevalence of an argument suggests that it has commendable qualities”

That’s not the only possible suggestion, so it can’t be assumed. For example, a bad argument could simply be prevalent because there are no good arguments in favor of the position it tries to support. Bad arguments can also be prevalent because people simply want to believe in what they try to support, even if the logic is flawed. The human tendency towards self-delusion and rationalization, even in theological matters, can’t be discounted.

[xzins]

Which is just a backwards way of saying that prevalence could be significant. Therefore, to discard it at this point in the discussion of the future....since it hasn’t happened yet....is a bit premature.

So, in the list of evidence, prevalence has its place.

[Boogieman]

“Which is just a backwards way of saying that prevalence could be significant.”

Sure, it could be, but that should never be assumed without demonstration. You’ve provided no such demonstration, but simply asserted that the prevalence of the argument itself is a testament to its merits. I’m sorry, but that is nonsense.

An argument stands or falls on its merits, and not on its popularity. If a valid argument is unpopular, it’s still a valid argument, and if an invalid argument is popular, it’s still an invalid argument. If you can establish the validity, then appealing to the popularity is unnecessary, and if you can’t establish the validity, then appealing to the popularity is meaningless. Either way, it doesn’t serve a real purpose, except perhaps one of distraction.

[Jeremiah Jr]

Question: In the passages below a harlot symbolizes something. The title on her head is "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." One of the titles is "the mother of harlots". This suggests that there are other harlots that have sprung from this harlot.

May I deal with the easy parts first? O.K.

Rev 17:7 But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition.

In chapter 4 of Daniel the decree is announced, not only for Nebuchadnezzar but for the prince of Persia as well.

13 “I saw in the visions of my head while on my bed, and there was a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven. 14 He cried aloud and said thus: ‘Chop down the tree and cut off its branches,Strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit.Let the beasts get out from under it,And the birds from its branches.

KEY= 15 Nevertheless leave the stump and roots in the earth,Bound with a band of iron and bronze,In the tender grass of the field.Let it be wet with the dew of heaven,And let him graze with the beastsOn the grass of the earth.16 Let his heart be changed from that of a man,Let him be given the heart of a beast,And let seven times pass over him. 17 ‘This decision is by the decree of the watchers,And the sentence by the word of the holy ones,..

Put three pennies in front of you and designate them like this...

The beast that was, Daniel's time, was not, Yohannan's time (John), and ascended from the pit, our time (pre Islam).

This is why the prince of Persia fought for twenty on days with Yeshua and Michael (Daniel 10:20), he was going down (into the abyss), you'd fight too!

Notice the key words 'iron' and 'bronze' as in...

Daniel 7 19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

The prince of Persia returns with the heart of a beast.

The third king was uprooted last year (2011) Muammar Gaddafi, after Hosni Mubarak and Saddam Hussein.

Rev 17:9 "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

Amman Jordan sits on seven mountains.

Rev 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet

10 horns, see Psalm 83, none are located in Europe.

It's a family feud between the Children of Abram/Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. See: children Ammon...

[Boogieman]

I don’t exactly agree with you about the predestination part, but I think you are correct that Satan will probably appear as a saviour, rather than a being of evil. I think his appeal will be very broad though. Many so-called Christians will believe he is Jesus, while Muslims may believe he is their Mahdi, and Jews, their Messiah.

A study of the world religions reveals that Satan was very crafty when injecting doctrine for his own purposes in all of the religions of man. I believe he has been preparing for his final “game plan” throughout all of human history, seeding everywhere false prophecies that he will be able to fulfill when the time comes. Even amongst Christians, he has managed to accomplish this. Look, for example, at how many Christians believe in the unbiblical rapture doctrine, or the false Marian apparitions that both set up just such a situation which Satan will be able to fulfill.

[Just mythoughts]

I don’t exactly agree with you about the predestination part, but I think you are correct that Satan will probably appear as a saviour, rather than a being of evil. I think his appeal will be very broad though. Many so-called Christians will believe he is Jesus, while Muslims may believe he is their Mahdi, and Jews, their Messiah.

Paul is the one who said that 'some' were chosen/elected before the foundation of this world. This foundation as used by Paul in Ephesians is a verb that means the casting down - overthrow... and world is age. Christ used what the translators used 'foundation' as well but IIRC some were in the form of a noun. But they reference to a particular event before this flesh age.

Only those of the chosen/elect can commit the unpardonable sin. As there are those that were given the the spirit of slumber for their own protection Romans 11:8.

Some traditions of men are so entrenched in modern doctrines it is considered blasphemy to even question their Biblical standing. But hey, as Christ gave that parable of the sower, we can plant seeds of truth and only God causes the germination.

[sasportas]

Is this your own personal interpretation? If not, who else teaches this? It sounds Jewish-Messianic, Noahide perhaps.

[Religion Moderator]

I have also been accused of being anti-Catholic and anti-Mormon. If any group wasn't complaining then I'd be concerned.

[Cronos]

responsibility2nd Evangelicals LIVE by the double standard

Tsk, tsk, don't disparage evangelicals.

[Cronos]

fake posts get pulled, fake posters get banned. remember.

[Cronos]

boogieman One needs to look at all things critically, with the Bible as the standard of proof. -- well with due respect, Spacejunkie did cite that he had Biblical knowledge when he said that spacejunkie2001 (post 147): No one has been judged yet so no one’s in heaven. The Bible is very clear that we don’t go with Him until His return. The thief on the cross was told by Christ he would be with him in paradise but no one has gone yet.

the Seventh Day Adventists like the Mormons have their own newly "translated" version of the Bible with their own distortions including Soul sleep, Satan as Jesus' Brother, etc. etc.

[Cronos]

True, quaint theories. the British-Israeli thing can be mostly harmless and quite frankly its out of date

Yosemite -- question, do you believe that the Anglo-Saxons and by extension WAS Americans are descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel? Or just spiritually?

imho it's wise to take the first -- the British concept with a pinch of salt. This was thought up as a justification for the start of British imperialism and sorry, has proven wrong as the British empire while doing a lot of good also helped the Saudis create their kingdom and hence the Sauds sponsor Wahabbi / al Qaeda terrorism and they also fudged over Israel and were instrumental of the first terrorist Islamic state -- Pakistan

But, yosemitest -- I will give your books a read

I in particular in 2007 remember the battles we had on FR against British-Israelism proponents who used it to denote their racist views

They were banned from FR as we don't want those folks -- and note I don't know or believe that you are the same as those, just pointing out something that many B-I proponents use

[Cronos]

boogieman : . He didn’t, however, say the thief would be in “Heaven, on this day”, or “resurrected, on this day”, but that the thief would be in “paradise, on this day”. Most of the possible meanings of “paradise” are quite different than the traditional meaning of heaven.

True, the limbo of the Righteous or Abrahams bosom

I dispute the poster's point of saying that we won't go with Him until His return.

[Cronos]

I’M the

really? Including Seventh Day Adventists et al?

And you complaining about FR? If one doesn't like it around here and wants everyone to follow their tune, then Democratic underground is the better forum.