Crossing the Jordan into the Inner Meaning [New Church, Open]

Spirit and Life Bible Study ^ | Wed Nov 28, 2012 | Rev Dr Johnathon Rose

[DaveMSmith]

Everything in the Old Testament history leads up to the crossing of the Jordan, and yet the way the story is told in Joshua 3 and 4 has major inconsistencies and problems. Is there another way to read it?

Can the Bible be taken literally?

[stfassisi]

I pray for no one to follow you.

[Rashputin]

I know what you mean. I was hoping someone had some different information than what's been in books I've read but no such luck.

Seems to me that when Protestants accept a Church council as their proof of what should be in the New Testament but not about the Old Testament, then take Luther as their final authority on the Old Testament but not the New Testament, they're not nearly as concerned about Scripture as they like to pretend. Like so many other things it looks like an an avoidance of taking up their cross along with a great lack of faith in both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

I also notice that when people point to the Jews removing seven books I seem to have missed someone mentioniong that Ethiopia never got the memo and uses the same books as the Catholic Church to this day. That sure looks to me like the Holy Spirit protecting His Word even when the Jews were trying to avoid having some books used to convert Jews to Christ. If those books were so far out of line I have no doubt that Ethiopia wouldn't have kept them either. Their removal was Rabbinical Judaism at work rather than the Holy Spirit.

I guess it's a matter of whether or not you believe Jesus Christ who said His Word would never pass away. Some people obviously think Jesus Christ was too stupid to realize the Septuagint was the Scripture when He said that.

[mitch5501]

Thankyou for all your work and especially for the spirit of your posts! All of you.A most enlightening thread!

"The debt of our sin was paid in full on the cross and, when we leave this earthly life, those of us who have received the gift of eternal life by grace through faith will not have any sin - nor the "temporal" debt it racked up..."

"...in the twinkling of an eye.....corruptible must put on incorruption....." (1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

[daniel1212]

Regardless of what one makes of this hyperbolic polemic (and there are a some others that make us blush) designed to accentuate the greatness of God’s grace, a fuller examination of Luther’s teaching shows that he did not teach that since we aren’t saved by works then there is no reason to try to clean up our act, but as shown, he saw the latter as a testimony to no real faith.

In protesting against those who charged him with rejection of the Old Testament moral law, Luther responded,

And truly, I wonder exceedingly, how it came to be imputed to me, that I should reject the Law or ten Commandments, there being extant so many of my own expositions (and those of several sorts) upon the Commandments, which also are daily expounded, and used in our Churches, to say nothing of the Confession and Apology, and other books of ours. Martin Luther, [”A Treatise against Antinomians, written in an Epistolary way”, http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_against_the_antinomians.html]

As for no longer calling ourselves sinners, this is basically truer, as under the New Cov., the appeal is to see yourself according to what you are positionally in Christ, washed, sanctified and justified, accepted in the Beloved and a new creature seated in the heavenlies. (1Cor. 6:11; Eph. 1:6; 2:6; 1Cor. 5:17) to the gory of God.

But practically we are sinners, and James refers to believers as such, saying, “Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? “ “Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. “ (James 4:5,8)

And while God sees us a righteous in Christ, He also is pleased when we walk accordingly, and likewise sees us when we are not Christ-like, and can have something against us, and thus He calls us to repentance. (Rv. 2+3)

And thus believers will suffer loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, but which is not purgatory and occurs during the period of the Lord’s return. http://peacebyjesus.tripod.com/1cor._3.html#Purgatory

God night.

[boatbums]

I pray for no one to follow you.

I join you in that prayer for it is CHRIST that we must all follow. I rejoice that the Lord gives us these opportunities to touch other's lives through these forums and that we can freely speak of the Gospel of the grace of God and to trust that the Holy Spirit works in each heart. God bless you.

[boatbums]

Amen!!!

[mitch5501]

"[I]f you desire to believe rightly and to possess Christ truly, then you must reject all works that you intend to place before and in the way of God. They are only stumbling blocks, leading you away from Christ and from God. Before God no works are acceptable but Christ's own works."

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief..." (Hebrews 4:10,11)

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:29)

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,...*A*N*D*... that ye may believe(you MAY do the work of God,you MAY strive to enter that rest that you MAY cease from your own works) on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)

Excuse the rant,got a bit fired up.

God bless you all.

[Cronos]

Dave: The New Church

you of course mean the Swedenborgians

[Cronos]

Rashputin -- I dispute with you calling these people "Protestants"

actually the "Protestants" are those belonging to the original 3 groups that broke away from the Western Church -- namely Lutherans, Calvinists (Presbyterians, Reformed) and the Anglicans

The other groups broke away from them -- like the 3rd generation of reformatters included the Unitarians (in the 16th century) and the Wesleyans (in the 18th century) and the anabaptists (in the 16th century)

the Baptists broke away from the Anabaptists in the 17th, making them 4th generation reformatters

The fifth generation include the radical reformatters like the Christian Scientists and then the really weird groups like the Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons -- arguably, even though the latter 3 came from this 5th generation mileieu they are arguably not Christian

The 6th generation included the pentecostals

And now the 7th are the Word of Faith pentecostals and the Oneness pentecostals (those who deny the Trinity)

only the Lutherans, Presybterians, Reformed and Anglicans are really the "Protestants". All others are simply their own traditions or splits from those 3 traditions

[Cronos]

Warming up to my theme -- There are new directions being found, new interpretations everyday.

Each new bunch of Reformatters reformats the old.

1. You have the first generation namely Lutheran sticking close to orthodoxy with the Lutherans holding to the True Presence in the Eucharist, to Baptismal regeneration etc.
2. Generation 2: Then you have the Calvin-Zwingli crowd rejecting these two as well as other aspects of orthodoxy
3. Generation 3: Knox and the Anglican compromise
4. Generation 4: The Unitarians like Michael Servetus who went from being Catholic to Lutheran to Reformed to denying the Trinity.
5. Generation 5: the Baptists who now rejected infant baptism (quite unlike their namesakes the Anabaptists (now called Mennonites)) and said that there was a great Apostasy in the first centuries of Christendom (Gen 1-3 took later centuries as the dates of their "Great Apostasy")
6. Generation 6: the Restorationists at the Great Awakening, like
   
   • The Millerites, to become the Seventh DayAdventists -- with Ellen G White saying that Jesus was the same as the Archangel Michael and that Satan woudl take the sins of the world at the end of time and other beauties. They came up with their own version of the Bible
   • The Unitarians and Universalists -- reborn and reinvigorated by this reformatting, they tossed out the Trinity and eventually they end up as they are today where they believe in nothing
   • Jehovah's Witnesses: they tossed out the Trinity too and came up with their own version of the Bible
   • The Mormons: they took the Trinity and made it three gods. They too came up with their own version of the Bible
7. Generation 7: the Orthodo Presbyterian C, the FourSquare Ahoy! Pentecostalists, the Raelians, the Branch Davidians, the Creflo-Dollar crowd, the Jesse Dupantis (I went to visit Jesus in heaven and comforted Him) etc -- one step further beyond generation 6
8. Generation 8: ... any one of the thousands of new sects formed since 1990

[Cronos]

I’m trying to see why someone who thinks Rolf Doofenshmirtz (long lost brother of Heinz Doofenschmirtz) would know more than the Apostles and those the Apostles personally taught and ordained, would believe that both Protestants and Catholics are in error.

Well, the term "Protestants" is too vague -- I prefer not to use it.

there is no relationship between orthodoxy-close Lutherans and Traditional Anglicans and with the Swedenborgians or Mormons or boatbums crew -- they are different groups in their own rights and should not be called "Protestants"

[Cronos]

Everything in the Old Testament history leads up to the crossing of the Jordan, and yet the way the story is told in Joshua 3 and 4 has major inconsistencies and problems

Like?

[Cronos]

Actually, as normal, your post is inaccurate and / or showing only part of the truth, thereby leading to the erroneous conclusions that are rampant in your posts

Luther's rejection of books was not novel but he had scholarly company with others who also doubted some of the books. among those were many who rejected the Book of the Revelation -- for instance DaveMSmith's "New Church"

So, if this latter debate is to be taken and dogma voted on (as I suppose those who argue for this also support the ECUSA voting on allowing gay bishops etc, women bishops etc.) well, then bye-bye Rapture

[Cronos]

which thus can provide an infallible canon, even if it took over 1400+ years after the last book was written to do so

As usual half-truths peddled in such posts. tsk. tsk. tsk

Not God's work...

The canon of orhtodoxy was settled in : the Synod of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), the Council of Carthage (397), a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse (405), and the Second Council of Carthage (419).

in each of these the canon was identical to what is in the Catholic bible today -- so contrary to the false tales repeated in your post above, the canon has been decided since the 4th century

[Cronos]

GOOD labor intensive WORK!

really? I thought you said works don't matter?

[Cronos]

The canon of orthodoxy was settled in : the Synod of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), the Council of Carthage (397), a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse (405), and the Second Council of Carthage (419).

in each of these the canon was identical to what is in the Catholic bible today -- so contrary to your post above, the canon has been decided since the 4th century

[Cronos]

I fail to see any inconsistency. the city of Ur of the Chaldeans was a real city -- archaeologically proven

Ditto for Harran where Abram's family stayed, founded about 2300 BC, it was the CArrhae in Roman times where Rome suffered its first catastrophic defeat against the Parthians

This continued until the Mongol invasions -- 3000 years of history

I see no inconsistency there

The Jewish revolt of the Maccabees in Maccabees I and II -- I see no inconsistency there

what inconsistencies are you talking aobut?

[Elsie]

I was hoping someone had some different information than what's been in books I've read but no such luck.

It ain't the parts of the bible that I don't understand that upsets me; but the parts I do!

[Elsie]

Thanks for a good example of turning the other cheek.

Matthew 5:11
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

[Elsie]

All others are simply their own traditions or splits from those 3 traditions

So I am now a Catholic!

WESLEYAN by choice; of the Methodist tradtion; protesting against the first protesters brings us full circle; doesn't it!