Crossing the Jordan into the Inner Meaning [New Church, Open]

Spirit and Life Bible Study ^ | Wed Nov 28, 2012 | Rev Dr Johnathon Rose

[DaveMSmith]

Everything in the Old Testament history leads up to the crossing of the Jordan, and yet the way the story is told in Joshua 3 and 4 has major inconsistencies and problems. Is there another way to read it?

Can the Bible be taken literally?

[Rashputin]

Before we begin discussing whether what you claim about Catholics v Protestant views of the Bible, we should settle the question of why Protestants don’t accept the entire Bible but only a subset.

If Luther had sufficient authority that a group of people would accept his throwing out portions of the Old Testament, why haven’t they also thrown out the portions of the New Testament he didn’t think should be there?

Either the Catholic Church has the authority to define the canon of the New Testament in spite of what Luther thought, they have the authority to define the canon of the Old Testament as well.

So, before getting into the little quiz you propose, how about we discuss just why it is that so many people refuse to accept the entire Bible rather than the Luther subset of the Old Testament and the complete Catholic New Testament?

[Salvation]

But even Luther accepted the Catholic Bible!! He just wanted to do his own thing rather than God's thing.

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists
that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther

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Are the Gospels Historical?
What is Biblical Prophecy? What Biblical Prophecy is NOT, and What It Really IS
Biblical Illiteracy and Bible Babel
The Pilgrims' Regress - The Geneva Bible And The "Apocrypha"

The "Inconvenient Tale" of the Original King James Bible
The Bible - an absolutely amazing book
Christian Scriptures, Jewish Commentary
Essays for Lent: The Canon of Scripture
Essays for Lent: The Bible
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How we should read the Bible
St. Jerome and the Vulgate (completing the FIRST Bible in the year 404) [Catholic Caucus]
In Bible Times
Deuterocanonical References in the New Testament

Translations Before the King James: - The KJV Translators Speak!
EWTN Live - March 23 - A Journey Through the Bible
"Our Father's Plan" - EWTN series with Dr. Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins on the Bible timeline
The Daunting Journey From Faith to Faith [Anglicanism to Catholicism]
Reflections on the Soon to Be Released New American Bible (Revised Edition)[Catholic Caucus]
New American Bible changes some words such as "holocaust"
Is the Bible the Only Revelation from God? (Catholic / Orthodox Caucus)
History of the Bible (caution: long)
Catholic and Protestant Bibles
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: ON READING THE BIBLE [Catholic Caucus]

Because I Love the Bible
Where Is That Taught in the Bible?
When Was the Bible Really Written?
Three Reasons for Teaching the Bible [St. Thomas Aquinas]
The Smiting Is Still Implied (God of the OT vs the NT)
Where Is That Taught in the Bible?
Friday Fast Fact: The Bible in English
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5 Myths about 7 Books

Lectionary Statistics - How much of the Bible is included in the Lectionary for Mass? (Popquiz!)
Pope calls Catholics to daily meditation on the Bible
What Are the "Apocrypha?"
The Accuracy of Scripture
US Conference of Catholic Bishops recommendations for Bible study
CNA unveils resource to help Catholics understand the Scriptures
The Dos and Don’ts of Reading the Bible [Ecumenical]
Pope to lead marathon Bible reading on Italian TV
The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Books of the Catholic Bible: The Complete Scriptures [Ecumenical]

Beginning Catholic: When Was The Bible Written? [Ecumenical]
The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]
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Catholic and Protestant Bibles: What is the Difference?
Church and the Bible(Caatholic Caucus)
Pope Urges Prayerful Reading of Bible
Catholic Caucus: It's the Church's Bible
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[Rashputin]

Well, he threw out the parts of the Old Testament that he didn’t like and wanted to throw out Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation. Another book or two as well but I forget which ones. That’s one of the big things that jumped out at me when I went through and read everything Luther wrote. I couldn’t see how someone was being led by the Holy Spirit and start by throwing parts of the Bible in the trashcan.

I’m trying to see why someone who thinks Rolf Doofenshmirtz (long lost brother of Heinz Doofenschmirtz) would know more than the Apostles and those the Apostles personally taught and ordained, would believe that both Protestants and Catholics are in error. Step one seems to be finding out how Doofenschmirtz and his minions have determined what they accept as part of the Bible and what they may not accept.

Regards

[Salvation]

**Doofenshmirtz**

Sound like you are doing some deep research.

Also don’t forget that Luther added words to the Bible — such as the word “alone” in faith alone when previously it only said faith.

[Rashputin]

"**Doofenshmirtz**"

Hey, it's not like I called him, "Herr Platypus".

"Also don’t forget that Luther added words to the Bible . . . "

Yes, I've about decided that Luther would have totally run amok and ended up having far less influence were it not for his buddy Phil keeping him in check.

[trebb]

Put in context, the Bible has no inconsistencies. Men "find" the "inconsistencies" to make themselves and their religions conform to their sensibilities - else, why some 30,000+ sects of Christianity that all claim the same Bible?

Pretty amazing work - written over a few thousand years by some 150 authors and it does not contradict itself unless one decided to "translate" it outside of its context.

[Biggirl]

But sadly, when Christians fight each other, it only just provides more ammo for the non-believing folks who want to attack Christians.

[Biggirl]

Please see post number 27. Thank-you.

[daniel1212]

You have posted at least 3 very recently, and the object is obvious to us. And since one of your defenses is that your home page, replete with promotion of Thomas Paine, manifests what you are about, and as you are promoting a particular church, would you tell us which Swedenborgian denomination you belong to? Thanks

[aMorePerfectUnion]

"But sadly, when Christians fight each other, it only just provides more ammo for the non-believing folks who want to attack Christians."

I don't fight any Christian. They are all family, regardless of denomination or tradition.

As to those who style them selves as Christians, while teaching heresies, well... I'll stand with the Apostle Paul. How about you?

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about."

II Cor. 11:12

[daniel1212]

Indeed: See http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2962210/posts?page=70#70

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2962210/posts?page=86#86

http://peacebyjesus.tripod.com/swedenborg.html

[Godzilla]

And nowhere does Swedenborg claim to be a prophet or does my Church recognize such

The Borg claimed exclusive interpretation of scripture - in that they cannot be understood apart from his interpretations. The Borg's works are regarded as revelatory by the New Church. Both of these are common claims by modern 'prophets'. However, not all borgs accept your denial Dave -

"Swedenborg: The Modern Prophet of the Lord" by Ragnar Boyesen states:
"That he prayed the Lord to belong to Him is a most significant step on the way, and we shall refer to this very point to show how our modern prophet differs from the prophets of old. "

From Swedenborg.org -
"Emanuel Swedenborg Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" by Bijhan Nasser-Faili - "Thus begins the prophetic career of one of the most remarkable individuals who has ever lived."

Simple google search turns up numerous Borg articles refering to Borg as a prophet.

More misinformation to deflect criticism?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

daniel,
Great Links!

[Springfield Reformer]

Good translation is difficult work. It is easy to criticize but hard to do. While I am by no means an apologist for everything Luther, this particular subject is not an open and shut case of “adding words” to the Bible, as our own forum discussions have demonstrated in the past:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2801154/posts

See post#28 in particular.

As one who has attempted amateur translation of both Hebrew and Greek into modern, informal English (purely for my own edification - I would not foist such feeble exercises on the public at large), I can tell you there are gaps between the languages that are sometimes not easy to fill without making somewhat risky decisions about the meaning of the text and how best to represent it. I remember hearing about one translator (Wycliffe group, I think) working in a language where there was no word for love. Every single place the word appeared in the original it had to be adorned with “added words” that gave it the meaning of love in that linguistic context, in that culture. To fail to add those words would have been to refrain from telling the whole of God’s truth.

Again, I’m not making an argument for or against any particular choice of Luther. He was a man and was as fallible as any pope ever was. We all make mistakes, and then we justify them. Only God has an accurate score card. I’m just saying that in translation, to make a sound accusation against a particular choice of words, you need to do more than jsut say “added words” = “wrong words.” It may be true, or it may not. It depends on the specifics, case by case.

Donning flame-retardant suit now ... There, I’m ready, flame away ...

[daniel1212]

Before we begin discussing whether what you claim about Catholics v Protestant views of the Bible, we should settle the question of why Protestants don’t accept the entire Bible but only a subset.

If Luther had sufficient authority that a group of people would accept his throwing out portions of the Old Testament, why haven’t they also thrown out the portions of the New Testament he didn’t think should be there?

Either the Catholic Church has the authority to define the canon of the New Testament in spite of what Luther thought, they have the authority to define the canon of the Old Testament as well.

As has been often documented here, and referred to you before, Rome did not provide its infallible, indisputable canon until the year Luther died, and there was substantial dissent about books which Luther rejected down through the centuries and right into Trent - despite an overall acceptance reflecting decrees by early non-infallible councils such as Hippo, Carthage and Florence. See http://peacebyjesus.tripod.com/ancients_on_scripture.html#2 Thus Luther's rejection of books was not novel but he had scholarly company with others who also doubted some of the books.

As for what authority Protestantism has for its canon, the question must first be what is the basis (Scripture, etc.?) for your assurance that Rome is the One True Church® (and which thus can provide an infallible canon, even if it took over 1400+ years after the last book was written to do so)?

And why is it necessary to have an assuredly infallible magisterium in order to establish writings as Scripture?

Thanks.

[presently no screen name]

As usual, Daniel, GOOD labor intensive WORK!

[presently no screen name]

Doesn’t Greek have 7? ways of saying love - depending on the depth of love and/or what it applies to? No flame from me. Surface readers (w/o the HS) are the ones critical, IMO. To be sure, they follow man-made teachings while saying they are followers of Jesus Christ/The Word.

[presently no screen name]

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about." II Cor. 11:12

MAJOR BUMP! That SHOULD stop the 'let's play nice' theme.

[DaveMSmith]

The General Church of the New Jerusalem

[DaveMSmith]

swedenborg.org is another branch.