Decisions decisions!
Posted on 11/15/2012 4:33:43 PM PST by Colofornian
(To see Cal Grondahl’s cartoon that goes with this post, click here) A key difference between Latter-day Saints and many other Christian churches is that Mormons believe that there are various post-judgment kingdoms in the outskirts of heaven. There’s the Telestial Kingdom, for anyone from Hitler to that lawyer who’s cheating on his wife. There’s the Terrestrial Kingdom, for those decent folks who said “not now” when the missionaries came by the door. And then there’s the Celestial Kingdom, the jackpot prize.
But even the Celestial Kingdom comes in degrees. According to Joseph Smith, there are three degrees of glory in the Celestial Kingdom. So there’s the big leagues, triple-AAA ball, and AA ball in the Celestial Kingdom. The Terrestrial Kingdom is eternal single-A ball while Telestial Kingdom folks are damned to the rookie leagues forever.
And there’s a reason I say leagues, because Mormon pop theology also flirts with the idea of progression within the lesser kingdoms … and even from kingdom to kingdom.
I refer to one of the more obscure B.H. Roberts’ books, ”Outlines of Ecclesiastical History,” first written in 1893, but my edition is from 1927. The copy I have was used by an LDS missionary of that era. Roberts was one of the “progressive model” Mormon leaders of the first half of the 20th century. He favored a more expansive interpretation of Mormon doctrine. It was a doctrinal battle that Roberts and others would eventually lose, mostly snuffed out by Joseph Fielding Smith and the rise of ultra-conservative church leaders.
Anyway, Roberts, on page 416, parts 19 and 20 of The Restoration of the Gospel section, writes:
“The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial — that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. We can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture.
20. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory — having before them the privilege also of eternal progress — have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories, may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement: and thus between them is an impassable gulf which time cannot destroy. Thus: those whose faith and works are such only as to entitle them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to entitle them to entrance into the celestial kingdom – they may arrive where these were, but never where they are.”
Now here is where things get really interesting. I went to an online archive of Roberts’ 1893 book for the last quote. And “… where they are” is where section 20 ends. However, if I go to the 1927 edition of “Outlines of Ecclesiastical History,” which I am holding in my hands, Roberts continues with this fascinating “conjecture”:
“But if it be granted that the chief fact about Intelligences is that they have power to add fact to fact and thus build up knowledge, and through knowledge have wisdom, and thus make progress; and if to such intelligence there is granted eternal life — immortality — then it is useless to postulate any limitations for them; for in the passing of even a few thousands of millions of years, even if progress be very slow — there will come a time when these intelligences — men and women of even the telestial glory — may become very acceptable characters, and very important personages.”
This is radical doctrine, and exciting to read. It brings Mormonism back to its most progressive roots. But, today, web searches include only the 1893 edition. Roberts’ speculation from 1927 is not there.
And since 1927, the idea of eternal progression toward exaltation has became a pariah. I came of age as a young Mormon in the 1970s and I recall more than one teacher telling classes that the idea that you could progress from any of the lower kingdoms to exaltation was damnable to consider. In fact, I recall teachers citing Bruce R. McConkie, who described the idea as one of the “Seven Deadly Heresies.” (here)
What is included in Roberts’ 1927 version was part of Mormonism’s move to more speculation of doctrine, more discussion. It was not to last, though. I have no idea of if the propensity to seeing the 1893 version of “Outlines …” online is due to disapproval of the 1927 edition, but I would not be surprised.
Today, if you go to the LDS apologetics group FARMS’ internal Wiki page on eternal progression between the three kingdoms, you get an odd non-answer that translated, more or less reads, there is no official church position on this, but it probably isn’t true.
Going back to Roberts’ book, section 7, page 408, of The Restoration of the Gospel,” he writes:
“Naturally the question arises why was the gospel preached to the spirits in prison who had once been disobedient if there were no means by which it could be applied to them for their salvation. We can scarcely suppose that Messiah would preach the gospel to them if it could do them no good. He did not go there to mock their sufferings or to add something to the torture of their damnation by explaining the beauties of that salvation now forever beyond their reach! Such a supposition would at once be revolting to reason, insulting to the justice of God, and utterly repugnant to the dictates of mercy!”
That part of Roberts’ teachings remains Mormon doctrine. It’s a reminder that the LDS belief that God does not have a “line” that divides all in a “heaven” and “hell” is still evidence of the faith’s exciting, progressive roots.
So, despite the JFS and BRM efforts to make progression within kingdoms a “sin” to speculate about, we Mormons do still wonder about these issues, and even discuss them among ourselves from time to time. (To read a fascinating article on Roberts’ and others debates within the LDS leadership over doctrine, go here).
Sounds a lot like the Catholic doctrine to me. Can Mormons buy their way out of lower heavens? Can they recite the Book of Mormon passages twenty times for atonement? Just asking :)
In my short time on these threads, I've learned to expect "non answers" from Mormons. I've been told by people in the know, that they will answer only questions, "I should have asked".
Yawn.
Why not, J. Smith did it and had all the bucks, booze & babes he could handle. That is if you don't care about your final destiny. Contemplate eternity for a few minutes before you make your decision.
In my short time on these threads, I’ve learned to expect “non answers” from Mormons. I’ve been told by people in the know, that they will answer only questions, “I should have asked”.
- - - - -
Yep or they will dodge the question altogether and just bear their ‘testimony’ - a rote memorization of how they ‘know’ the LDS church is true based on their feelings.
Indeed you do!
But Dianetics<>/b> is taken, and Oprahism has not yet been formalized; so you'll have to go in a slightly different direction.
Stay away from pasta based religion; or you may feel the lash of a noodly appendage across your spine!
It might be too late.
They could, however, bought their way INTO the high spot while on Earth; if they hadn't been so greedy and kept more than 90.00% of their money for themselves.
|
Temple Recommend Questions
1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer? 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? 5 Do you live the law of chastity? 6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church? 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? 8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel? 9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? 10 Are you a full-tithe payer? 11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom? 12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations? 13 If you have previously received your temple endowment: Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple? 14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been? 15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances? |
THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHICHAPTER 224 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
Or even HERE:
1 Timothy 3:2-3
2. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3. not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.1 Timothy 3:12
A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.Titus 1:6
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTSSECTION 13251–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
The FR lds thread debates predated Mitt Willard McBush’s antics by many many years.
There is little connection to Romney’s fake conservative campaign and these threads.
In the Mormon view of heaven, ONLY those entering into Mormon "covenants" and obeying fully Mormon laws get to live forever in God's presence: * Eternal life is living with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in the celestial kingdom. This blessing--which is also called exaltation--comes only to those who keep the commandments and make the necessary covenants
(Source: Preparing for Exaltation Teacher's Manual, p. 4, 1998)
This is the belief of those nice neighbors, of those clean-cut young men on bikes....oh, and Mitt Romney (not to mention the mormons of FR).
This is what the "we are Christians, too" mantra from Salt Lake City really consists of and is put forth to the Christ-believing world.
And THIS garbage is what mormons and non-mormon FReepers alike come on these pages to "defend against" the handful of "bigoted" anti-mormons on FR.
How much more bigoted can it be than to claim that only "those entering into Mormon "covenants" and obeying fully Mormon laws get to live forever in God's presence"
If I could block the anti-Mormon crusade from the religious forum from my computer, I would. It’s a boring waste of time.
And yet you USE your precious time commenting about it!
PRICELESS!!!
But Ma'am! You STILL get US on your porch!!
No, I don’t get Mormons on my porch. I have a gate at the end of my driveway.
HA! I’m saving that for later use.
Can Mormons buy their way out of lower heavens? Can they recite the Book of Mormon passages twenty times for atonement?
- - - - - -
I sense the humor in your questions, but I am going to give you a serious answer.
Mormons have 3 levels of heaven, and no real Hell. They also have ‘spirit prison’ which is similar to Catholic purgatory but only temporary and they can get out of that if they accept the Mormon gospel in the afterlife (LDS from ‘spirit paradise’ go and preach to the spirits in prison) and a worthy Mormon does their ‘temple work’ (baptism, endowments, marriage for eternity, sealing children to parents) here on earth (which is why they are so into genealogy).
After the return of Christ, they will be judged and sent to one of the 3 kingdoms. Joseph Smith taught that even the lowest kingdom (telestial) is so great that we would commit suicide to get there. Here is a break down of the 3 kingdoms...
Telestial - Everyone no matter how bad you are who doesn’t accept Jesus in this life or the Mormon gospel in the next. Unrepentant serial killers who don’t accept the Mormon gospel in ‘spirit prison’ would go here. This level (kingdom) only has the Holy Ghost present.
Terrestrial - Those who live a ‘good’ life, and believed in Christ, but didn’t accept Mormon gospel either in this life or in spirit prison go here. Also, Mormons who were not married in the temple, or were not considered ‘worthy’ go here. Billy Graham would probably end up here as would most ‘jack Mormons’. This is where Jesus is (but not God the Father). The Holy Ghost can visit, but God cannot and Jesus cannot go to the lower level.
Celestial - This is the HIGHEST level of Mormon heaven. This is their true heaven and the equivalent of what Christians call Heaven. There is speculation that there are many sub levels but the goal is the highest level. God the Father is here, Jesus and the Holy Spirit can visit. Those who accepted Mormonism in ‘spirit prison’ and had a faithful Mormon do their ‘temple work’ here will go to the lower levels of this kingdom, while the ‘worthy’ Mormons who did all the works required (including Temple rites and being married) will ‘progress’ into ‘exaltation’ - becoming gods themselves, just like God the father and get their own universes and organize (Mormon gods can’t create or destroy matter just organize it) ‘spirit babies’ with their wives to populate said planets and teach them Mormonism.
There really is no Hell and no place of eternal fire, almost everyone will go to one of the 3 levels of Heaven. However, for people like me, and other ex-mormons who have been through the temple and fight against the Mormon church - we are considered ‘sons of perdition’ and go to the ultimate deep freeze - ‘outer darkness’. We won’t burn in Hell but because we had a ‘testimony’ of Mormonism and turned away from it and fight it, we go where there is no light or heat.
The fear of outer darkness is so instilled in Mormon brainwashing that it keeps many people who don’t otherwise believe still in. They don’t believe it anymore, but have been taught their whole lives if they leave they will go to ‘outer darkness’.
And no, there is no progression from level to level.
Then don’t come on the threads. It may be boring to you, but it is VERY necessary and we have done a lot to open the eyes of people about the realities of Mormonism and even seen some Mormons leave Mormonism and come to Christ because of these threads.
So it isn’t your cup of tea, fine. But it is our CALLING from God and we won’t stop - we can’t stop.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
