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To: NYer
The concocted; unBiblical idea of "Purgatory" is just another of man's inventions in his quest to try to save himself. If "Purgatory" is real, why isn't it mentioned specifically in the Bible? If "Purgatory", the idea that man can finally be made perfect, is real ... then why did Jesus need to die on the cross for our sins? I suggest you go back and re-read Ephesians 1 to understand God's plan. Man cannot save himself. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away ." Isaiah 64:6 (Emphasis mine) Any attempt by man to justify himself with his own acts of righteousness is a slap in the face to a Holy God who sacrificed His own Son so that He could re-establish fellowship with His fallen creations. Jesus is either all-sufficient, or the Bible is only a clever compilation of stories, and we can make up what we want as long as it makes us feel good about ourselves. May God illuminate our hearts and minds to His true Word.
4 posted on 11/02/2012 5:26:21 AM PDT by Swashbuckler99
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To: Swashbuckler99

You wrote:

“If “Purgatory” is real, why isn’t it mentioned specifically in the Bible?”

Why isn’t the Trinity specifically mentioned? Why isn’t the Bible specifically mentioned in the Bible? Why aren’t we specifically told in the Bible that Matthew wrote a gospel?

“If “Purgatory”, the idea that man can finally be made perfect, is real ... then why did Jesus need to die on the cross for our sins?”

(sigh) You do realize that Jesus’ death is what powers Purgatory, right? Thus, your question mnakes no sense. Purgatory could not exist without Jesus’ death on the cross.

“I suggest you go back and re-read Ephesians 1 to understand God’s plan. Man cannot save himself.”

I suggest you learn what Purgatory is before you post about it. Clearly, from your questions and suggestion, you do not know what it is.

“May God illuminate our hearts and minds to His true Word.”

May God teach you enough humility to look up what a doctrine actually is before you start posting against it on the internet. That would make you not only more knowledgable, but less foolish looking.


8 posted on 11/02/2012 5:41:32 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Swashbuckler99
I wrote a detailed reply to you, but my tablet ate it. :-(

However, the short answer to your objection is that nobody in purgatory is "saving themselves" because all of them are already saved. Only saved people even get to purgatory. Purgatory is where the elect of God complete their sanctification before entering His presence.

11 posted on 11/02/2012 6:02:29 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Swashbuckler99

I understand your point, but respectfully disagree.

So far as things being specifically mentioned in the Bible, you may want to consider Deuteronomy 22:13-28.


12 posted on 11/02/2012 6:36:23 AM PDT by GalaxyAB
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To: Swashbuckler99; NYer; raygunfan; dangerdoc; vladimir998; GalaxyAB; metmom; boatbums; caww; ...
If "Purgatory" is real, why isn't it mentioned specifically in the Bible?

While it is not necessary that a doctrine to directly rest upon explicit statements, yet as with the Trinity, it should be soundly derived from clear texts, and for which the doctrine of purgatory fails, but which supports the doctrine that all true believers go to be with the Lord forever upon departing from this life, as will be shown.

The argument here for purgatory is based upon the premise that Jesus commanded souls to be as perfect as God, quoting Mt 5:48 which states, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect, " (Matthew 5:45) ,” which is in context refers to treating your enemy benevolently. However, this does not teach that the achievement of absolute moral perfection in this life is a perquisite for salvation, and which would require redefining salvation, and is tantamount to placing one under the Law. (Gal. 3:10)

For while salvific faith is one which characteristically effects the “obedience of faith” toward its Object (which faith in any moral authority will do, and which is an overcoming kind of faith, (Rv. 2,3), and grows towards the maturity which is called perfection, (Col. 1:28; 4:12; Ja. 1:4; 3:2; 1Jn. 4:17) and which faith has “great recompense of reward,” (Heb. 10:35), yet Scripture states that believers (being of true faith) are presently saved (Titus 3:5), and positionally perfect (Heb. 10:14) and seated in Heaven. (Eph. 2:6)

Those who lack characteristic practical holiness in the obedience of faith, which (like David) includes repentance when convicted of sin, (1Jn. 1:7-9) but who assent to a different gospel (such as based upon morally earning it: Gal. 5:1-4) or who deny the faith (1Tim. 5:8) by knowingly continuing impenitently in sin, departing from the living God, (Heb. 3:6,12,14; 10:25-39) evidence they have rejected true faith (or never had it) and will be lost if they die in that state, and not go to purgatory.

And in contrast to the Scripture texts that are enlisted in support of the Roman tradition of purgatory which typically either refer to punishment of the lost or chastisement in this life or of loss of rewards when the Lord returns, wherever the NT actually refers to the postmortem existence of believers (which are all called “saints), it places them with the Lord.

The apostle Paul, while he told the Philippians that was he not “already perfect,” (Phil. 3:12) was yet torn by two desires, “to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better ,or to abide in the flesh to minister to the saints. (Phil. 1:23,24)

Likewise he stated to the Corinthians, "We [plural] are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)

In addition, the Thessalonians, which were still undergoing growth in grace toward perfection, were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord.” (1Thes. 4:17)

And while the Corinthian believers were certainly not fully mature, yet the apostle taught that at the Lord's return then that is when they would be like the Lord, (1Cor. 15:49-57) at which appearance is when believers will fully be made perfect. (1Jn. 3:2)

To which is added the contrite confessing criminal on the cross who went to be with the Lord upon his physical death, (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as did Stephen. (Acts 7:59)

And we may be certain that the contrite confessing criminal had not yet attained moral perfection, which is one reason given for purgatory, the other being the need to atone for sins which the believer was not sufficiently chastised for in this life in compensating for them, and thus Rome teaches that such must atone for “in the life beyond through fire and torments or purifying' punishments.” (INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA; cp. 1. 1967)

However, what Scripture only reveals growth in grace and overcoming as being realized in this world, with its temptations and trials, (1 Peter 1:6-7; 1Jn.2:14; 5:4,5; Rv. 2.7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21) where alternatives to submitting to God can be made (suffering itself does not make one mature) and thus it was here that the Lord Himself was made “perfect,” (Heb. 2:10) as in being “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb. 4:15)

Moreover, while Christians will be judged for the things they did as a believers, (Rm. 14:10-12; 2Cor. 5:10) as in how they built the church, this occurs after the Lord's return, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:21-23; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards and the Lord's disapproval. (1Cor. 13:8ff) And which is contrary to purgatory, which has souls suffering in ongoing torments upon death in order to atone for sins and become perfect.

See here as regards 1 Cor. 3.

Note however that the “official” Roman doctrine of purgatory is ambiguous enough that it is open to much interpretation, so that it even may be taught, albeit inconsistently, that the suffering is for a moment, or is hardly even suffering.

Finally, the reality is that the doctrine of purgatory does not rest upon or require Scriptural substantiation, only that it does not contradict Scripture according to Rome's interpretation, and instead it is a tradition which rests upon Rome infallible declaration of herself as being infallible, while the Eastern Orthodox reject the purgatory of Rome (among other things) based upon their interpretation of Tradition and Scripture.

But for those who are prone to attempt to justify purgatory by Scripture, though that is not their supreme authority, i have engaged in extensive exchange on this, as here, and which little should need to be added.

26 posted on 11/02/2012 10:30:25 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Swashbuckler99

Amen!


51 posted on 11/02/2012 10:29:34 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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