[/caption] Posted on 10/17/2012 5:32:20 PM PDT by ReligiousLibertyTV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16
[caption id="attachment_5052" align="alignright" width="215" caption=""The Water Torture.— Facsimile of a Woodcut in J. Damhoudère's Praxis Rerum Criminalium: in 4to, Antwerp, 1556.""][/caption]
Pouring water over the covered face of an immobilized person is a brutal thing to do. The captive experiences severe pain and an overwhelming sensation of drowning. Some victims have even been known to break their bones as they struggle against the restraints.
But waterboarding is nothing compared with what American theologian Jonathan Edwards described God doing in his famous 1741 sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” This tortuous existence extends into eternity from the moment of death.
American evangelist Charles Spurgeon preached that, “In hell there is no hope. They have not even the hope of dying; the hope of being annihilated. They are forever, forever, forever lost! On every chain in hell, there is written ‘forever’. In the fires there, blaze out the words, ‘forever’. Above their heads, they read, ‘forever’. Their eyes are galled and their hearts are pained with the thought that it is ‘forever’. Oh, if I could tell you tonight that hell would one day be burned out, and that those who were lost might be saved, there would be a jubilee in hell at the very thought of it. But it cannot be it is ‘forever’ they are cast into the outer darkness.”
From the perspective of Edwards and Spurgeon, the depths of hell are inversely proportionate to the heights of Heaven, as an all-powerful God gives eternal life to both the saved and the damned. While tears and sorrow will vanish from Heaven, the saved live with enduring knowledge and are even expected to rejoice that somewhere else concurrently living souls of the damned ranging from evil dictators to their unsaved neighbors day after day experiencing continuous ripping pain throughout eternity. An unrepentant child who died 1,000 years ago is being tortured that much longer than a recent mass murderer.
But is this really something that God would do? Does this belief influence how many Christians relate to the rest of the world?
In a 2008 USA Today poll, 57% of Southern evangelical respondents, and 48% of the general public, said that they believed torture can be justified to obtain information from suspected terrorists.
Why would be Christians be more willing to justify torture than the general public? It might go back to the doctrine of eternal torment in hell. Many believe that God will engage in torture day and night for eternity, so it would follow that Americans fighting for a righteous cause are justified in engaging in torture for short amounts of time to meet their objectives.
In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks, on September 13, 2001, Ann Coulter, in an infamous column wrote, “We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war.”
In Catholic theology, torture isn’t only reserved for the eternally lost. The church teaches that even the saved will suffer in purgatory for their sins until their debt of temporary punishment for venial sin has been paid through their own suffering.
But does suffering in hell appeal to the blood lust of an angry God, or do many Christians simply have the wrong picture of God? Where did this idea come from?
The doctrine of hell, as is commonly believed, has its origin in Plato and its application in the writings of Augustine who believed that God must punish, not only save, otherwise no human life, lived well or badly, made any ultimate difference. (See James V. Schall, "Regarding the Inattentiveness to Hell in Political Philosophy,"DivusThomas, (Piacenza), (#3-4, 1989), 273-79.)
Augustine believed that ultimately salvation from hell was the ultimate goal since one’s destination and one’s existence were the only things that were eternal. He divided society between the people who were saved in the “City of God” and the damned “Earthly City.” Since the two “cities” were intermingled on earth, The City of God must be fortified against the hellish Earthly City by an all-powerful totalitarian church that could police and protect the flock.
Because humanity set on a downward course through original sin, Augustine created the framework for an intermingling of church and state which would be necessary to ensure the survival of public moral virtues that would save as much of society as possible.
Invoking the doctrine of eternal hell, Augustine made an argument along the lines that if two men lived in a house which people knew ‘with absolute certainty’ was about to fall down on them and kill them. If the men were warned of the impending danger and they refused, what should we do? Should we rescue them now, and reason with them later, or leave them to die? According to Augustine, we should rescue them now, for "I think that if we abstained from doing it, we should well deserve the charge of cruelty." (See Augustine, “A Treatise Concerning the Correction of the Donatists; or Epistle CLXXXV).
[caption id="attachment_5041" align="alignright" width="200" caption="Religious punishment: Burning at the Stake"]
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Accordingly, Augustine believed that it was the duty of the religious community to conduct investigations to locate heresy in Hell on Earth - Burning at the stakeorder to prevent the messages of heretics from corrupting the righteous. As a leading bishop, Augustine personally assisted in the interrogation, or inquisition of pagans, unorthodox Christians, and others he viewed as holding unacceptable beliefs. Ultimately, the Church took control over defining what was “true” doctrine and anybody who disagreed or preached contrary to these “truths” could be justifiably tortured or even killed in order to keep society free of harmful heresy and to fulfill the greater purpose.
So Christians acting with presumably good intentions resorted to techniques ranging from starvation to heaping burning coals on parts of the bodies of heretics. Then they started inventing ways to cause pain more efficiently while avoiding death in order to obtain confessions. Medieval torturers would tie the hands of the accused to pulleys on the ceiling and attach weights to the feet and ankles. They invented methods of stretching the joints of subjects to the point where bones were pulled from their sockets. They pulled at skin with pincers and thumbscrews and invented waterboarding, a technique first practiced by the Inquisition against Mennonite Christians in 1554.
Augustine’s beliefs in eternal hell, just war, and torture continue to have a tremendous influence on the modern world.
Augustine would consider this vein of thought pure heresy, but if Jesus Christ would really provide for eternal life both heaven and hell, maybe Christopher Hitchens was on to something when he titled his book, “God is Not Great.” If, as I type this, God is burning people at unquenchable stakes, then why would He care about the temporal suffering of a child who lost his pet dog or a father suffering the ravages of cancer? Even His suffering and death on the cross lasted less than a day – how could a week, a year, a century, or eternity possibly be justified? How can a God like this possibly be “love”?
What a person believes about hell has a lot to do with what they think about God and how they believe people should be treated. As we enter times of social stress and ambiguity, when fundamental values are at stake, people of faith who doubt the power of God to change lives and believe that they are needed to fight the spiritual battle often engage a persecutory impulse, justified by a concept that whatever torture they mete out will be nothing to the fires of hell. In fact, for over a thousand years, Christians were religious persecutors.
I’m not a theologian so this may not be complete but here is a basic overview of what the Bible says about heaven and hell.
“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Revelation 21:4.
Thy mercy, O Lord, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.
Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O Lord, thou preservest man and beast.
How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.
(Psalm 36:5-7)
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For more information about the doctrine of hell, visit:
Hell Truth (Amazing Facts) - http://www.helltruth.com/
Brian P. Phillips - “Annhilation or Everlasting Torment?” Ministry Magazine (1996) http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1996/August/annihilation-or-endless-torment
Film: Hell and Mr. Fudge - http://hellandmrfudge.org/
And most Christians do not beleive it is God who tortures people in hell. Who is it that does that to people on earth and in hell? A lot of Christians don’t beleive in or that there is a force in opposition to God that struggles for their worship and souls and therefore, they don’t beleive in hell, either.
The God Jesus talked about and demonstrated to mankind is the opposite of hell’s god. The place of God is opposite of hell’s god. People have the free will of which force they folllow and worship.
This is why I can never understand people who experience or see evil on earth and get mad at God as if He did it to them. That is up-side-down to me.
Without Hell, what unpleasantry is there to be saved from?
Eternal annihilation, ceasing of existence, is something many have no fear of: what is there to fear in simple absence? was there something unpleasant about your non-existence before conception?
Rosencrantz: Do you ever think of yourself as actually dead, lying in a box with the lid on it? Nor do I really. Silly to be depressed by it. I mean, one thinks of it like being alive in a box. One keeps forgetting to take into account that one is dead. Which should make all the difference. Shouldn’t it? I mean, you’d never know you were in a box would you? It would be just like you were asleep in a box. Not that I’d like to sleep in a box, mind you. Not without any air. You’d wake up dead for a start and then where would you be? In a box. That’s the bit I don’t like, frankly. That’s why I don’t think of it. Because you’d be helpless wouldn’t you? Stuffed in a box like that. I mean, you’d be in there forever. Even taking into account the fact that you’re dead. It isn’t a pleasant thought. Especially if you’re dead, really. Ask yourself: if I asked you straight off I’m going to stuff you in this box now – would you rather to be alive or dead?
Naturally you’d prefer to be alive. Life in a box is better than no life at all. I expect. You’d have a chance at least. You could lie there thinking, well, at least I’m not dead. In a minute, somebody’s going to bang on the lid and tell me to come out. (knocks) “Hey you! What’s your name? Come out of there!”
- Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead, by Tom Stoppard
Lacking - like a sense of humor.
Sorry, but Jesus used the word everlasting in relation to hell several times. He either said it and meant it, or he didn’t say it, or he said it and did not mean it, or he lied. Take your pick.
This is open to interpretation, and some descriptions assert torment: “It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated [atoned, be compensated] either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or 'purifying' punishments.” (INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA; cp. 1. 1967)
“I answer that, In Purgatory there will be a twofold pain; one will be the pain of loss, namely the delay of the divine vision, and the pain of sense, namely punishment by corporeal fire. With regard to both the least pain of Purgatory surpasses the greatest pain of this life… Therefore it follows that the pain of Purgatory, both of loss and of sense, surpasses all the pains of this life “(Aquinas T. The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, Appendix I, Article 1.).
As for nothing unclean, that is why Scripture teaches that believers are washed by faith (1Cor. 6:11) and only plainly teaches that they go to be with the Lord after death or when the Lord returns, if their faith is an obedient kind. . And i have dealt with those who extrapolate Rome's tradition of purgatory (which the Orthodox overall reject) out of some texts, as in this FR thread here or 1Cor. 3 (see here)
Pick your verses, post them and I’ll show you where your context is wrong.
Basically the result of rejecting Jesus is eternal or everlasting in nature, but the punishING does not go on forever. The ONLY ones that appear to suffer forever, according to Revelation is the Devil, the anti-christ and the false prophet. Read Revelation and notice what it says and the order and context in which it says it.
Once your soul is destroyed it stays that way forever, therefore that punishment has eternal consequences.
First, accept the Bible on what it says and the clear weight of the evidence is that there is not an eternal punishING.
Second, do you want your children to love you and spend time with you learning about life and the world because they choose to believe in you or would you rather have your kids cling to you out of fear that you will torture them? God is our Heavenly Father and He wants to commune with us but he gives us the option to choose to want to commune with him. If we reject Jesus, then we choose death which is eternal separation from God.
See the link for the verses. Have at it.
http://thetruth-blog.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-did-jesus-say-about-hell.html?m=1
Indeed, Jesus did not come to condemn, but to save ourselves from our own foolishness and evil bipolar intents which condemned us in the first place.
To be away from God is to be in hell, and it is as simple as that. Thus, to condemn the Holy Spirit was the last thing to do.
The sinner is bad enough, as he or she is an emergency shelter seeker, usually repenting at the last minute. However, the language that condemns Jesus and rejects the holy spirit is torture.
Christianity knew of Jungian projection and demonic possessions which accused Jesus far before Jung talked about projection himself, or, rather, the limited worldview dominating the perceptions of the us vs. them, projecting into them what we would do if we were them for lack of better alternative thinking, because of blindness.
Look, we can play battling links, but that won’t really get anywhere. I posted a link also, which addressed all of those verses and the context in which they are given. If you don’t want to read that, fine, but don’t expect me to disect a long blog on Freerepublic.
I will just reference you back to my first post. I used to preach an eternal Hell and I know all of the verses dealing with Hell/Hades/Ghalena/Sheol/etc. but like you, I just parroted what others had told me without really reading what those verses really said. In the end you can not find ANYWHERE in the Bible where we are immortal before accepting Christ. Second, you can’t ignore what Revelation says about the destruction of Hell and all that were in it in the Lake of Fire.
Now, maybe it’s too hard for you to accept what the Bible lays out right now. I understand. Many good Christians have been mislead on this doctrine, but I am thoroughly convinced after much reading and studying of the Bible that the eternity for the unbeliever is complete and total ellimination in the Lake of Fire. Now that doesn’t mean that they won’t suffer for a time in Hell, but that time is finite and will end.
Hey, I would prefer that the Hell not be eternal, actually, I would prefer that it not exist at all, and if it does, that the souls in it have a chance to escape. The passages in the Bible where Jesus talks about eternal hell are a major turn off. I would also prefer that God approve of every fun thing I want to do, or at least understand that when I sin I always have a good excuse. But what I prefer and what is true are obviously two different things.
We can argue what the Bible says and actually means ad infinitum. That is the reason why there are so many protestant sects, each claims to have the real Truth. I call that chaos. Believe what you will, what is true is true. We are not obligated to believe one way or the other about Hell, only to be obedient to God.
“do you want your children to love you and spend time with you learning about life and the world because they choose to believe in you or would you rather have your kids cling to you out of fear that you will torture them?”
Continuing your line of reasoning: I don’t want to be a parent who would “put them out of their misery”.
Eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. “The Fire that Consumes” is one of the best books on this subject, by Edward Budge, I believe.
But the concept is certainly there when Paul speaks of those "saved, but as through fire" and when 2 Maccabees attests to the Jewish practice -- which continues today -- of prayer for the dead.
And you're wrong -- nobody in purgatory is "earning their way into heaven," because they already possess it.
[20] The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
[21] Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
[22] But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
[23] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[24] And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
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Jesus says the same in Luke and Mark - that the rich must sell all their possessions and give it to the poor. The rich guy would not part with all of his wealth, so he couldn't follow Jesus. This is a real time eyewitness account of an event, not a parable. The meaning could not be more clear.
So to those who believe eternal torment is real, have you sold your possessions and given it to the poor yet? If not, then when will you?
‘This tortuous existence ‘
Pretty much ended his crediblility right there. Writer doesn’t know definitions of simple words, much less definition of Scripture.
it would have been better if he’d never been born.
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